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In this episode of Sound Design Live, I speak with Philip Graham of Ear Trumpet Labs in Portland, OR about condenser versus dynamic microphones for live sound, close miking, and and why Shure SM57 microphones sound terrible from more than a few inches away. We compare the Ear Trumpet Labs Edwina microphone to a Neumann KSM105. Plus, we talk about stage monitor feedback, building condenser microphones, and quality control.
If you’re playing an acoustic guitar and singing, there is absolutely no reason for you to be kissing an SM58. That’s just silly. Yet, that remains the default.
Details from the podcast:
- Mics: Edwina, Chantelle, KMS105, SM57, SM58
- Philip on Facebook
- Electret (the magic material used for the microphone diaphragm)
- Microphone Polar Patterns
- Proximity Effect
- Are dynamic mics more forgiving than condenser mics?
- Venues: Freight & Salvage, Mississippi Studios
- John Huntington’s article: There Is No Perfect Sound
- Yahoo Micbuilders Group
- Quotes: “Most of the good sound guys that I know talk about the book that they want to write, explaining to the world how they should behave and what goes into doing decent sound.”
https://youtu.be/HuPeYzue7CY
I think he’s putting the cart before the horse with the SM58 proximity effect thing. They aren’t used from close range because it’s the only way to make them not sound thin, they’re used from close range because it’s the most effective way to achieve a high ratio of desired signal to ambient sound (other instruments and voices, monitor wedges etc.) The second best way to achieve this is with directional patterns which, bar some exceptions, will produce proximity effect. When those two are combined, you get a large low end boost, so the low end is rolled off the “base” response to compensate for this.
One of the things that will kill a live mix the fastest is the “phasiness” caused by having multiple mics picking up the same sources at similar volumes. This gets worse very quickly when you start moving mics back. If it’s an opera singer on their own on a large stage, OK, but is it usually? If that acoustic guitar player who has “no business kissing a 58” were to move it 4 inches away you’d get a load of off axis guitar bleed relative to the now much quieter vocal signal.
For recording one instrument at a time there’s plenty of merit for being able to get low end without having to close mic, but the arguments for this aren’t nearly as applicable live.
Hey Chris, as much as I don’t like to operate by generalizations, I agree with you. Almost all live sound is done with close miking for better separation. Yes, mic bleed on stage is a bitch. Now, when we have solo acoustic performances or even small groups, then we can start talking about the sound quality differences of distance miking.
Thanks for the real world check in.
Now, if someone could figure out how to close-mic cymbals, my life would be better. Oh wait, e-drums, never mind. 😉
Hi Chris, Nathan,
I will respectfully disagree. I really don’t believe kissing the mic is in any way a good thing except when very loud stage volume makes it necessary, or unless the singer wants a certain effect.
Firstly, I think your concern about phase issues is overstated – a vocal mic at 6″ is still very much close micing, well within the 3-1 distance rule for phase issues from the guitar. Think of it this way: when you’re micing the guitar with that KM84, would you try to put it 1″ or less away? how do you think it would sound? We all know it can be tough to get that acoustic guitar miced without feedback, but that it sounds best from 6″+ away – and in fact sounds fantastic, much much better than any pickup. But the feedback issues with a guitar are 90% resonance from the guitar body itself – singers don’t resonate (at least any that I know), so it’s not actually hard to get vocals from 6″ with no feedback issues that sound much more natural – if you use the right mic. Watch this and see if you think phase issues are causing problems: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHBZGv8uvzo. And if you really want to do away with phase issues for a singer songwriter with a guitar, why not put a single great sounding mic in front of them? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgxgyYlylsw. Obviously with a pair of players they have to be practiced at this, but you’d be amazed at how comfortable and happy most solo acoustic musicians are to just have a single mic put 2 feet in front of them – and how many compliments you’ll get on the sound.
I’m not sure I was entirely clear what I meant about the sound of the 58. The supposed “gentle presence peak” is actually a honking 8-10db hump. When you get any distance away, it doesn’t sound just thin, it sounds nasal. It requires you to get right up to it to get a countervailing proximity hump to sound remotely balanced – but what you’ve really got is a whomping 10-db smiley face. Please measure the response of one from 1″ if you think I’m exaggerating. So that’s the sound you’re getting from the singer-songwriter using a 58 in the usual way. Now if you really thought, “I think what this singer needs is for me to to scoop her mids 10db”, well, go for it. But I will maintain that for this to be the default sound given to all vocalists in all live venues everywhere is a crying shame.
Thanks for your patience.
Yup to acoustic players backed up from a good condenser. BUT, the scary wild card is the acoustics of the stage itself. I had the pleasure of being forced to use studio condensers for a evening of 10 singles, duos, and up to 5 piece acoustic groupings. No monitors. The romm seated 200 and was built in the 1930’s. What I expected to be to be sound man suicide turned into a dream job. That old place allowed me to keep the players 1 to 2 feet back from the mics. Every one on stage could hear. And there wasn’t an ugly reflection, or standing wave in the room. The sound was smooth and articulate. What a difference from every venue I have ever worked in.
Great point Ron!
Great podcast. I play in a string-band (banjo, guitar, mandolin, cello, and washboard / spoons / etc.) We have been trying to figure out a good way to distance mic the band. Most recently we have had some success with a LDC mic just under shoulder height from roughly 2 feet away, and a stereo SDC pair at 90 degrees, one on each side, spaced about 3 feet apart.
We have had a bunch of feedback issues in loud (bar) environments. The smaller the room the worse the feedback. Getting close is really the only option. We keep trying though because it sounds so much better. That saying “air is the best mixer” is spot on. Lining everything out independently sounds really “plastic”, and you lose much of the warmth those instruments have in an unamplified setting.
The feedback is mostly through the LDC (an MXL 990). I know we have been told there are better mics for this application, but we’re hesitant to invest in something we haven’t tried. Any advice?
Hi Ivan, thanks for writing. What’s the name of your band?
I’m checking out the Dig Sessions. Very cool.
For other people reading this who were confused at first (like me), LDC = Large Diaphragm Condenser and SDC = Small Diaphragm Condenser.
I guess you already read Single Miking Groups On Stage With Condenser Microphones? There are some great tips in there.
You are in a difficult spot playing bars and loud venues. First of all, I remember going to see Assylum Street Spankers in Austin. They would start the show by explaining why they didn’t use “devil amplification,” ask everyone to shutup, then wait until they did. Might not work in your case. Secondly, you need as much isolation between you mic and the speakers as possible. You might want to also read 6 Smart, Proven Methods To Control Feedback Onstage (Without EQ). I’ve never used an MXL 990, but I am going to hazard a guess that you will get better control and thus more gain before feedback with a better mic. In fact, if you had one really good mic and one really good speaker, you could bypass the whole in-house system and take control. Even put the speaker at the other side of the room so that the people farthest from you could still hear.
Here’s one more idea. Get pickups or contact mics for all of the instruments. Mix those in under your main group mic for more apparent volume.
Lastly, maybe Philip Graham will comment in with his experience. Maybe he has seen a group trying to do what you are doing.
Ivan, you are exactly right that the smaller the venue the harder this is. I don’t have a lot to suggest on top of what I outlined in my blog post on single micing that Nathan already linked to. Try to control what you can about the environment – get as far away from and behind the mains as you can, and try to get something soft and acoustically absorbent behind you like a curtain. I’ve seen little front-of the-bar stages go from totally unworkable to fine just by drawing the curtains over the big glass window right behind the players.
Your LDC will definitely be the biggest problem. Not to plug my stuff too hard but I don’t know of other large diaphragm mics specifically designed for live use. Most studio LDCs use a dual-diaphragm capsule, even if they’re fixed cardioid pattern, and I find those just don’t keep to the cardioid pattern very tightly at the high and low end of their response. If anyone knows of other models of mic that handle this well, please post them here. The default bluegrass single mic for many has been the AT4033, I think because even though it looks like an LDC it actually uses a small diameter capsule, and may be more manageable because of that. But it doesn’t sound all that great, and most people that have tried a Louise tell me they get better feedback resistance as well as better sound.
But the best insurance for tough rooms is to get really good at playing really close to each other and the mic!
I play in a 5 piece bluegrass band and also an 8 piece ukulele band. I have two Louise mics that we use with the ukes and it works awesome outdoors, as it should, but also in larger bars that have live music focus as long as the sound engineer knows a little about how acoustic music should sound (the bass is nearly always too loud in house because they are used to rock and roll bass) and have an open mind. Every one of the more professionally minded figured it out in a hurry once they figured out the bass thing. The bluegrass band has less feedback issues because the instruments are pretty loud and the fellas are very practiced in dancing around the mic (only use one but have used both when a sixth person joins). The uke band is in the process of making a curtain backdrop to take for some of the more, shiny and thus challenging venues. I pimp Louise (and ETL to my acoustic musician friends. Oh, AND a guitar player I play with on occasion came to a dance gig with his brand new Louise he purchased for an acoustic group he plays with. Completely Independent of my purchase. He knew nothing of my Louise and was raving about it before I told him I had one too. Ear Trumpet Labs is the real deal.