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Know Your Audio Analyzer Averages

By Nathan Lively

After you take several measurements and average them together, what do you expect to see?

If these two measurements are averaged, what do you expect?

Is zero the average of -6dB and 6dB, or something else?

1 octave wide parametric filters at 1kHz

Here are four possible averages you may have guessed, depending on which audio analyzer you use.

tl;dr

  1. Know what kind of averaging your audio analyzer uses.
  2. Collecting more data is more important than the way it is averaged.

Here are demos from a selection of audio analyzers in alphabetical order.

Crosslite+ v2.0.0 8

Along with options for pre and post processing, Crosslite+ offers four different options.

“Arithmetic Average Complex” : Arithmetic mean in complex values.

“Quadratic Average Complex” : Quadratic average or RMS in complex values.

“Arithmetic Average Magnitude” : Arithmetic mean in real values in dB, with phase zeroed.

USER GUIDE CROSSOLITE REV 1.1

Does the magnitude average change with trace offset? Yes. It appears that trace offset in Crosslite is the same as a gain change.

Does the magnitude average change with phase offset? Yes, except for Arithmetic Average Magnitude.

In this test I averaged the response of two microphone cables with a second order APF inserted on one of them at 1kHz.

Se deseja saber a média de fontes separadas coerentes ou de uma curva polar, é bom utilizar a aritmética complexa.

Se é média para curvas de equalização, melhor a de magnitude em dB.

Escolhi os tipos que estão mais presentes na maioria dos softwares que possuem funções de média.

Francisco Monteiro

If you want to know the average of separate coherent sources or a polar curve, it’s a good idea to use complex arithmetic.

If it’s an average for equalization, better the magnitude in dB.

[For Crosslite] I chose to offer the types that are most present in most software that have averaging functions.

Francisco Monteiro

L-Acoustics M1

M1 offers a single kind of average, which appears to be a simple average with phase zeroed.

Does the magnitude average change with trace offset? No. There is no trace offset option.

Does the magnitudeaverage change with phase offset? No.

OpenSound Meter v1.0.5

Open Sound Meter offers vector and polar averaging.

Does the magnitude average change with trace offset? Yes, the results are the same for a measured gain change.

Does the magnitude average change with phase offset? Yes for vector. No for polar.

For in-space averaging I use polar method. For vector (complex) you need to have very close phase responses.

Pavel Smokotnin

REW v5.20

REW offers two options for averaging.

Vector average, which averages the currently selected traces taking into account both magnitude and phase. It can only be applied to measurements that have an impulse response.

RMS average, which calculates an rms average of the SPL values of those traces which are selected when the button is pressed. Phase is not taken into account, measurements are treated as incoherent. This does the same as the Average The Responses button. If the measurements were made at different positions (spatial averaging) it may be helpful to first use the Align SPL… feature to remove overall level differences due to different source distances.

REW Help

Does the magnitude average change with trace offset? Yes, but only after the data is permanently changed with the Add offset to data button.

Does the magnitude average change with phase offset? Yes for vector. No for RMS.

RiTA

RiTA offers a single options for averaging traces: Arithmetic Average Complex

Does the magnitude average change with trace offset? Yes.

Does the magnitude average change with phase offset? Yes.

The next version of RiTA will include three options for averaging.

Complex AVG: magnitude estimation is greatly affected when complex averaging is performed. It is useful when you are interested, in close measurements, in knowing the constructive and destructive interference of the sound system.

ABS AVG and dB AVG are intended for spatial averaging of several microphones. Abs AVG tends to give priority to good data and less to data affected by reflections. dB AVG gives equal weight to all data.

By default, RiTA 2.5 uses ABS AVG

Pepe Ferrer

SATlive

SATlive offers a three options for averaging: Create Sum Trace, Complex Add, and Weighted Average.

Does the magnitude average change with trace offset? No

Does the magnitude average change with phase offset? Yes for Complex Add. No for Sum Trace.

SATlive offers 3 different approaches for averaging different measurements.

1. Complex averaging: Will calculate the sum using the amplitude values of each trace and the phase relation between the traces. It is intended to average measurements taken at the same mic position, like Sub/Top time align or interference of different sources. (quick traces -> sum trace complex averaging).

2. Amplitude based averaging: Will calculate the sum by normalizing (center at 0 dB) each trace and afterwards adding the amplitude values only. This is helpful when you want to average traces taken at different mic locations (and in most cases, using the same source).  (quick traces -> sum trace Create Sum Trace).

3. Weighted averaging: This is a special version of 2. where you can assign a weighting factor to each trace (three configurable settings). This was inspired by the Primary/Secondary/Tertiary measurement approach, which I first heard about during my SIM II seminar. In fact, it does not make much sense to add tertiary traces to the result, but it would be possible. (Trace Manager)

Hint: There is a Valid only if all traces valid option for 1. and 2. where you can define wether just one valid result at a certain frequency will be sufficient for a valid result or all traces averaged must contain a valid value to create a valid result.

Which of the options do you recommend to your users for judgement of tonality and EQ operations?

Only option 2. and 3. will make sense here. I rarely work with averaged measurements during EQing. Normally I’d use the Primary Location trace as the base for EQ while the other traces help me to distinguish if the problem is global or just local.

Big differences between the different mic-locations (primary/secondary) indicate a problem that you should fix before applying the eq (redirecting the speaker, additional speaker, speaker with a different directivity pattern).

For overall tonality I’d go for 2 and for Eq-ing for 3

Thomas Neumann

Smaart v8.5.0.2

Smaart offers two options of averaging with the second including built-in proprietary pre-processing.

Decibel spatial averaging, sometimes called arithmetic averaging, is a simple average of decibel magnitudes at each frequency. Spatial power averaging is the average of squared linear magnitudes at each frequency with the result converted to decibels.

Unweighted dB averaging works exactly the same way both transfer function magnitude and spectrum averages. When you select Power averaging for transfer function measurements, however, Smaart automatically adjusts the overall level of all individual measurements going into the average according to their average decibel magnitudes in the range of 225 Hz to 8.8 kHz so that they are all approximately equal in level throughout that range.

Rational Acoustics Smaart v8 User Guide, Release 8.3

Does the magnitude average change with trace offset? No.

Does the magnitude average change with phase offset? No.

Our data is in dB, so we have to decide whether to average linearly or logarithmically, whether to normalize first, whether to weight by coherence (does it make sense that poor-quality data gets as much “say” in the final result as high-quality data?) and of course remembering that FFT math spits out complex data points, not simple integers.

So you can end up with a lot of approaches that are all valid from a mathematical standpoint, but the question becomes “which method gives us the most useful result?” (I could average together the number of socks in my drawer and the number of tires on my car, and even if my math was correct, it’s a meaningless answer for all practical purposes.) So at the end of the day, we want averaging that produces information that’s helpful to the user. If you have a bunch of traces and you average them, we have an expectation of what that final averaged response should look like. How well does it highlight the trends indicated by the individual traces? That’s what we’re looking for when we take an average, and so our averaging is designed with that in mind.

In terms of which to use, just like everywhere else in Smaart: if you’re not sure which setting you need, use the defaults. They’ve been carefully chosen over many years to give good results without the user having to tweak around. I actually reset the software to default configuration every time I use it, and I pretty rarely need to go in and change a bunch of things from that state. The primary advantage of power averaging would be if you’re averaging together a bunch of traces that have severe comb filtering (which hopefully doesn’t happen all that often). The math will give more weight to the peaks and less to the dips, so you end up with something that can be more representative of the overall response in that area and what your ear might tell you. But – in most circumstances, the differences between coherence-weighted dB average and power average end up being very small. If you create both types of average from the same dataset, and lay the two averages traces on top of each other, you’ll see they tend to agree very well. I think you’d have to come up with a pretty contrived situation or have pretty bad-quality measurement data to get a result where the power averaging and the dB averaging disagree.

Michael Lawrence

All together now

Here’s an overview of the different averages being discussed in high contrast. All of these are my own estimations since the math is not exposed and is in some cases proprietary.

Which one should I use?

Please follow the manufacturer guidelines and in most cases stick with the default settings.

The demos in this post average electrical measurements of symmetrical EQ filters in order to clearly expose the calculations being used. I want to be able to see clearly if the average of +6 and -6 is 0 or something else. Measurements of speakers in rooms will feature many wide peaks and narrow valleys instead of this symmetrical behavior.

As I worked through each demo I found myself wondering why I might use one average over another. Being visually inclined and looking at a graph, at first the simple magnitude average made the most sense.

(-6 + 6) / 2 = 0

M1 offers this as its only option and it is the default option in Smaart and SATlive.

Why do the other options exist?

If you had one subwoofer and I gave you another, how much would that be in decibels? You would add 0dB + 0dB to get 6dB.

If I gave you another half a sub you would have 8dB because 20 * log10(1 + 1 + 0.5) = 8.

Following the same process of linear to log conversion, we should calculate the decibel average of -6dB and 6dB like this:

20 * log10((0.5 + 2) / 2) = 1.9dB

Maybe it makes more sense now why some audio analyzers like REW, RiTA, and Open Sound Meter show an average of 1.9dB instead of 0dB.

Interestingly, Bob McCarthy finds even this form of average to be lacking since it does not take psychophysics into account.

Studying summation revealed that 20–40 dB dips are likely to stay down in only a small area, whereas 6 dB peaks may spread over a wide area. Studying perception revealed greater tonal sensitivity to wide peaks over narrow dips. Therefore we should be wary of accepting 0 dB as the best representative here. When samples agree, the averaging builds confidence. When samples differ, the average is suspect. There’s safety in numbers when math averaging is used: get a lot of samples.

McCarthy, Bob. Sound Systems: Design and Optimization: Modern Techniques and Tools for Sound System Design and Alignment (p. 453). Taylor and Francis. Kindle Edition.

In this case “0 dB” refers to the average of a 6dB peak and a -40dB valley.

My takeaway from all of this is that more measurements combined with optical averaging (looking at them all at once) is more important than the specific form of mathematical averaging you choose.

What do you think?

Be Helpful From Anywhere in the World (pandemic or not)

By Nathan Lively

Subscribe on iTunes, SoundCloud, Google Play or Stitcher.

Support Sound Design Live on Patreon.

In this episode of Sound Design Live my guest is freelance sound engineer and audio entrepreneur, Ed Kingstone. We discuss streaming events, remote mixing, and staying in business during a pandemic.

I ask:

  • Where do you see the demand right now? What are the most common services people are hiring you for?
  • What are some of the biggest mistakes you see people making who are new to remote mixing?
  • Tell us about the biggest or maybe most painful mistake you’ve made on the job and how you recovered.

Zoom is the next set of tools to learn.

Ed Kingstone

Notes

  1. All music in this episode by Lily J.
  2. The New Normal? Working remotely. Live Proof of Concept.
  3. Mics: Sennheiser 421 and 441
  4. Spiritfest SF20, All About Love Gatherings
  5. Books: Microphones: How they work & how to use them
  6. Quotes
    1. Wayne’s World is the backdrop of my youth.
    2. Just take all the work that God sends and it’ll be fine.

Transcript

This transcript was automatically generated. Please let me know if you discover any errors.

I’m Nathan Lively, and today I’m joined by freelance sound engineer and audio entrepreneur Ed Kingston. Ed, welcome to Sound Design Live.

Hey, thanks, Nathan. How are you doing?

Doing good. How do you feel about that intro? I was reading all the stuff about you, and I was like, you know what the simplest thing is like? Freelance sound engineer, audio entrepreneur, how do you self identify?

Well, I have been doing this for over 20 years now, and I’ve done so many different. I’ve got a grey beard, and my hair is going great, and I last cut it in 997. And when people ask me how long I’ve been doing this, I usually pull my hair down on my backside and. Av, about this long? Yeah. It’s a passion that I’ve had since I was a kid. I have fond memories of my dad coming home from work with one of those old little plasticky tape recorders that you put a cassette in.

And my uncle had a modular sound system in his front room with a really nice old turntable and a good selection of vinyl. And my grandfather was an electrical engineer. Av, between those three things, I ended up developing a taste for music and mucking about with electrical stuff and wiring, and it’s turned into what I. Av, awesome.

Well, let’s get into that. So I definitely want to talk to you about we’re going to talk about streaming events today and sort of remote mixing and painting speakers. But before we do that, just to get to know you and your musical tastes a little bit here. Ed, after you get a sound system set up or maybe a speaker put together, what’s one of your first go to favorite pieces of music to put on to just get familiar with it.

I’ve got a selection of about five or six tracks, and each one shows me something that the system is doing, and what I try to do is turn it on and play something and then look for things that aren’t supposed to be there and get rid of them. So I’ve got two tracks that I use. Let me just find them here by Salmon. Av, and they’ve got this really kind of bright Bow Town five K thing that really shows up. If there’s anything wrong in the high mid in the vocal region, I put on a gorilla track called Sunshine in a Bag.

I believe it’s called it’s just on. My playlist is Gorillas. And that’s got something in around the 3400 that tells me the bottom end of the vocals. Right or not, I’ve got a Rega track called track number eight off of block 16. And the CD that I ripped it from has a scratch on it, so I have to forward through the first 30 seconds, AV, it pass the scratch, and then this fog Horn, this fog corn baseline, comes in that does the two notes, and then it does a third note that some systems just don’t do.

And that tells me what the bottom end is doing in the system, and I can get that all sitting nicely. I quite like The Prodigy, the Queen’s not favorite tune, Smack My Bitch Op, because when it drops, it drops. And it’s got all that distortion stuff that I like from my previous heavy metal days when I was a kid and an Alanis Morissette being Canadian. And it’s the secret track at the end of Jagged Little Pill. And if you go to the very end and then just let it play for a couple of minutes, there’s an acapella thing about her singing to an ex lover in the shower, and it’s just acapella with this tremendous Reverb, and that will let me know whether or not the room’s behaving well for me.

And there’s some stuff about 800 in there that I can fix.

To.

Do a queuing, and I don’t play the whole track. I just play snippets of each track. And now I’ve got this down to five minutes of just clicking through and going did five minutes of clicking through and going, Dick, Dick, Dick, Dick, Dick, Dick. And I can make the room or the PA or whatever it is sound reasonable. And then I got a few other go to things, but.

Oh, that’s great. Do you think there’s anyone listening right now who might be young enough that they don’t know what a secret track is?

That’s quite possible.

You grew up when there is from CDs.

I remember having a fake Sony Walkman made by Sanyo and listening to The Queen’s Greatest Hits, just about the time that Michael Myers would have been learning how to drive. And he grew up a few miles away from me. I never met the Man, but Wayne’s World is the backdrop of much DB youth in Scarborough, Ontario, suburban Toronto in the nineties the same adventures. The name of the bar comes from Toronto. No, go ahead.

This is a perfect example of live streaming issues, right? Because I’m calling in on my phone because I’m in my new office and we don’t have Internet yet. The latency, I guess, is pretty significant. And so we end up talking over each other. And this is just one of the problems that come up when you’re trying to connect with people around the globe and you don’t have any control over everyone’s Internet connection. So we’re going to talk about that a little bit more, but go ahead and finish up what you’re saying.

And then I’ll explain what a secret track is.

Well, yeah, I grew up in and around the Toronto area in Canada in the 1980s. Av a teenager and I got over to England in the early nineties and wants to work in a pub. And these guys came in and started talking about this guy with long hair, head banging with a red check shirt, headbanging in a little blue hatch, back to a Queen song. And I thought, how does he know what I did when I was 15? This is Michael Myers taking the piss out of my teenage years in Toronto.

And the bar in the movie is called The Gasworks. And I used to play there before I was all enough to drink. I’d do the er real it’s upstairs. It was yeah, it’s now a surplus shop. I went back last summer and saw a year ago last summer and saw it’s now a surplus shop. But it was actually a bar called the Gas Works where all the heavy metal bands played. And it is literally tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. All of the stuff I did when I was 15.

That’s hilarious. What about Stan Makita’s Donuts?

Stan Macros? No, that’s Tim Hortons.

Oh, okay.

You’ve heard of Timmy’s?

Yes.

I was really shocked. I was in the Middle East on a gig and I walked into the shopping center and found Tim Horton’s. Donuts. And I was like, Yay.

Okay. And I was going to explain for anyone who met young enough to not AV ever experienced CDs for a while, I think in the Net, it was popular to put AV secret track at the end of the CD so you could have a total of 72 minutes on a CD. I can’t remember. But if you didn’t have enough material to fill the CD, then it was popular to just put a bunch of silence at the end of the last track and then have another. Like, what you would normally play is like a B side or something at the end of the track.

So my high school band, we did that. We had some, you know, weird Inspector Gadget cover at the end, and lots of people did that. So when you rip that CD and put it onto your ipod later, you AV this one track that was super long because it just had all the silence on it. So that’s what the secure track is. Nostalgia DB, how did you get your first job in audio? Like, what was your first pan gig?

My first pan gig was club in the infamous Hawkstone Square called the Blue Note. And I kind of I’d finished high school and we lived outside of the city and I moved back to the Toronto area and went to Trees, which was a recording art school. And then I dropped out of Trees after about six months because having a job, a girlfriend, a band. Av school where I wanted to learn how to mix and they were trying to give me communication lessons. I fuck fuck this, screw this or whatever.

So this works. And then and then I went and did some repair work and learn how to fix stuff at George Brown College for a couple of years. And then almost immediately moved to England because my English girlfriend ran away from Winter. And my buddy from College lived on a boat over here with his girlfriend. And I moved in with my girlfriend. And we kind of, you know, we hung out for a bit. And then I split up with my girlfriend and I stayed a couple of years later, I was pushing boxes for the local crew company.

And this guy came up to me while I was painting some staging one day. And he said, do you want to work for do you want to paint some speakers? And I said, sure. And I went into this warehouse for a company called Brittania Ro and learned how to spray paint speakers. And the network a huge right.

That’s one of the biggest production companies in the UK.

Yeah. And the next day I got a phone call from somebody saying, do you want to come and mix a band? And I said, sure. And I walked in and they had the same brand of speakers, the same turbo sound stuff. Av slightly older model. And it was a guy named Eddie Pillar who owned Acid Jazz Records that ran the club. And he liked what I did with the band and said, do you want to come back tomorrow? And that was it. I was in DB DA.

I knew that you knew how to mix a band. I mean, how did you get that job Besides just in the right place at the right time?

A friend of mine that was hanging out with Eddie said, oh, I know somebody. He’s just got a job at a PA company. And I went in and I plugged stuff in and I figured it out and made it sound okay. And they asked me to come back and I was there until the place closed a couple of years later. Okay.

And I know a lot of things have happened since then. Your life and your career. Av had all these twists and turns. But I was wondering if we could Zoom in on one particular moment when you feel like things really took a turn for you. And I find that with a lot of people, there’s a moment when they make a decision like, okay, I’m not going to do this thing anymore. Okay. I’m going to move to London or I’m going to do something different with my life.

So I’m wondering if looking back on your career so far, maybe you could tell us about one of the best decisions you made to get more of the work that you really love.

Well, I’d been working for this company for several years, and I’m not going to mention their name because they no longer exist. And they basically had a bad reputation for client service and paying their employees and I was stuck in a trap with them where I’d go into jobs only to be told that the money’s coming next week and then the money’s coming next week. Av spent years living in squats in London because I couldn’t pay the rent regularly and had did free parties on the weekends when I didn’t AV gigs on and it was all very hedonistic in the nineties and great fun.

And then a decade went by. So the Pink Floyd song says, ten years has gone by and nobody told me when to run. So I just spent about a month and a half getting ready to do this festival with these guys and they were doing dance music and I was getting kind of tired of staying up all night and doing babysitting DJs and things. I was very good at it. But I wanted to mix bands and I got a phone call from somebody that I AV worked with before and they said, do you want to come and work for use of Islam?

Av, the Live Earth concert in Germany on the same weekend as this festival and I was at loggerheads with the owner of the company. I walked into the warehouse to look at the prep sheet and pull all the equipment for the festival. And there wasn’t a single piece of equipment on the prep sheet in the warehouse. And that’s when the phone rang and I had to fight with the guy that was in the office at Take as the owner of the company was somewhere else and went to the calf to have a cup of tea and a bacon sandwich.

And on my way to the calf there was Thunder and lightning inhale and I walked into the calf and this guy’s song is playing on the radio in the calf. And I thought, I can’t ignore any of this. So I called up the company and I said, you know what? I’m going to be going to Germany. And I went to Germany and I think it was the front of house guy that squeaked, but it squeaked on the second track and he wasn’t touring or anything. He just did a one off and I never saw him gain.

But that walking away from those that enterprise was the best thing I ever did. So sometimes saying no, sometimes saying no is best. You know, I had this idea that you just take all the work that God sends and it’ll all be fine. And I was just getting pigeon holed into this place. I didn’t want to be anymore. That’s probably the biggest one that’s happened more than one one, but never on that scale.

Alright. So AV, this year’s Lifetime summit, you AV, a great presentation and a demo of remote mixing. You AV a couple of different people at different locations and you showed how you can remote in to control their mixes, listen to them, do recording, do editing, do overdubs. And if people want to watch that, they can do that. Av, Live Town Summit 2020 DB Sound An AV Com But what I would love to ask you about related to this is kind of just where the business side is a little bit, because the thing that you said during that presentation that really caught my ear was that we AV sound engineers should be thinking about how to help people customers, clients solve problems that they’re dealing with now, starting trying to do live streaming events, trying to figure out how to do their events with social distancing and put them online.

And one of the things that you mentioned, for example, was helping people figure out how to charge for a live event that they’re streaming to Facebook, for example. And so I’ve sort of been keeping my eye out for that, and, like, looking for products that are turning up. And I’ve been seeing solutions for that specific question. And so I don’t know if we want to specifically talk about that, but my real question for you is from just looking at a business and demand perspective, like, where do you see the demand for this right now when you’re getting calls?

Av, you’re seeing other people getting work for this kind of stuff. What are the most common services that people are hiring you for related to remote mixing?

Well, the demo that I did, I basically figured out how to do that from a history of using Yamaha equipment, the Yamaha mixers and wifing to them. And I’ve been doing it for over a decade now. When the first M seven came out and I saw somebody plug a WiFi box into the back of the M seven and then link to it, I’m like, oh, wow. I can tune the monitors without having to run back and forth and play with faders and stuff. So I did that.

I figured that all out, and then I just expanded on that. But the monetization of it, I’m still kind of struggling with I haven’t actually done any mixing in the way that I demonstrated, because most of the people that I’ve been working with don’t actually have one of these mixers at the other end of the Internet, you know? Yeah. So what I’ve been doing is to go online beforehand and have, like, a pre Zoom meeting and go through all the Zoom settings and go through the mixer or equipment or whatever it is they’ve got there and try to optimize that so that it’s stable and doesn’t fall over.

And one of the things that I’ve noticed was Zoom is once you’ve unticked the automatic stuff that, you know, gets rid of persistent and background noise and things like that and turned on your original sound and gone through all of that, that you can’t actually turn the volume up very much on the Zoom call because of the feed to the Zoom from their end, because the logarithm that they’re using is designed for audio that’s speech based. And when you start putting full spectrum music through it, it gets glitchy and starts guttering and falls over and stuff.

So what I’ve tried to do is get people to mostly just turn down their Zoom feed or turn down what they’re feeling to Zoom. And that fixes a lot of stuff. You know, yesterday I did another sound check for somebody that AV did a gig for a couple of weeks ago where they raised £2000 for a charity that plants trees in the Amazon. Were trying to reforest the Amazon because it’s all being burnt down at the moment. And they called me up because they’re doing another gig tomorrow and they said, oh, I’ve got all this new stuff.

And they had a nice Neyman large diaphragm condenser and they bought a new Universal Audio Apollo Twin, and they got their MacBook and stuff. And I spent hour and a half 2 hours with IEM yesterday just going through the set up. And at times I’m having a WhatsApp call with them AV video call saying, can you show me this thing and show me where the connection is and just going through everything in detail with them and making that work? And they’re sending me some hair care products from one of those sponsors.

So the previous gig I did for them, I got 75 quid for a couple of hours of my time, sat here with headphones and a microphone, and just I did that. I did all the pre work, I guess, pre production work the day before and set up the Zoom meeting with them. I found that using Zoom, if you pay the 40 quit or 30 quit or whatever it is for the Zoom webinar, you get HD sound, AV HD video, and you can.

Okay.

And that’s a much better option than just the 15 pound upgrade. And you can do custom streaming with that as well, rather than just to Facebook or to YouTube. But yeah, set it all up, make a DB. What else I’ve done is I’ve made a dead space on one of my Facebook friends Facebook page, and basically it’s not published. So if I need to check something, I can stream to that, and I’m an editor on it, and I can stream to that and then go back and check what it’s like.

And that’s been very helpful as well. Okay.

This is actually really helpful. Sorry to interrupt you. I’m just realizing that what you’ve actually been doing a lot is a lot of consulting, and it sounds like where the demand is is number one, helping people set up their equipment, but also kind of understanding just how to get the most out of Zoom. And one of those things is just like paying for Zoom webinars so that you have HD audio, but then also having, like, an unpublished Facebook page so that you can stream to that and no one sees it, and then you can look at it later.

That’s a great tip.

Yeah. And I set up a PayPal. We did one streaming event for these guys called All About Love. And there’s a page called All About Love Gatherings on Facebook, and you can see a couple of the events I’ve done there with them. One of them is with a guy named Kyle Murray and Susie Row. And they actually sang together on Zoom. And they threw away the whole concept of timing. Just did kind of AV acapella bit where one of them did a drone, and the other one busked a melody over top of it.

And that sounded really, really nice. And that worked. And then they went back and forth with their stuff instead of using the spotlight on the Zoom meetings. Av done. We let them mute and unmute their cameras. And when you’re streaming to Facebook, that lets them join in, and you can have two or three people up at once, and then everybody leaves, and it just leaves the audio. Remember that spotlight, but they’re doing it all themselves. And make sure that you tick the box in the Zoom settings under Meeting Settings Advanced.

And you can no, sorry. The recording settings, and you can tell it to record the Gallery view rather than the spotlight view. And then you get that AV a recording that you can then do other things with later. Yeah.

The only way that I figured out how to make this work for me is because I find the settings and Zoom not to be particularly intuitive. What I’ll have to do is I’ll check one box, then I’ll start a session, hit record, and then stop it and watch it and see what that setting does. And then check the next setting and hit record. And AV like it takes a while, but you have to go through all of them to kind of learn what they are, what you want, this particular.

Yeah.

And then Zoom does an update, and it all changes. Go back to the beginning.

I want copying a lot of calls about this stuff. Right.

Well, yeah. Av didn one weekend long streaming event where we basically did a festival onto and these guys set up their own TV station, online TV station called Spirit Fast TV. It’s got they basically put a field up for the festival called Spirit Fest 20, and you could go into different tents and see different things happening at the same time. So it was more like a real festival rather than just sitting and watching somebody perform on Facebook. And we get a slightly better quality video out of that.

And we set all of this up. And we went into a yoga studio in Brighton, which is a beach town about an hour south of London that was donated by one of the artists who lives in the yoga studio and the tent up in the back garden and put a control area out there with a bunch of Macs. And I had my streaming setup that I’ve cobbled together out of some bits that I’ve managed by for about a grand and a half and some old stuff I had lying about.

I borrowed some old Cal RECs off of my flatmate and bought a wide angle camera for 18 quid from China that took ages to arrive and set all of this stuff up in the yoga studio and used that as our base. And we had a band come in and I set it up so that it’s like, unplugged. So there’s not everything’s miked up. I had the two Cal races room mics, and everybody’s gain to sit there being very quiet in the space when we’re doing the streaming.

And then I put two vocal mics up and I ran them through a sound craft EFX that’s got a Lexicon Reverb unit in it. It sounds quite nice. And I put the left and right output into my edit role. And then I put 258 up and ran them through a couple of Bol ones that were just either side that one of the other artists brought in and made this setup so that we could have some Reverb and some effects and stuff on it if we wanted to.

And it’s, you know, mostly acoustic things. But one guy turned up with a keyboard and another guy’s got instrument, a traditional instrument called the Cora from Africa that’s basically the gourd from a calabash with stick attached to it, and it’s got about a dozen strings on it, and it’s a really beautiful sounding instrument, but his plugs in, so we plugged that in and he’s got a little effects pedal that he runs some effects through and stuff and brought that into the room and then sent the room mix through the Cal Rex out.

And it sounded really good. Unfortunately, when we tested this all and I was doing two streams at once, so I’ve got a Zoom meeting streaming, some yoga classes running in the back. And then I’ve got in the space the artist practicing. And I had two streams running all afternoon on Friday when we were testing and things. It was great. We had this fat broadband installed specifically for this gig. And then Saturday came and it was 30 degrees and everybody went to the beach from London, and there was thousands and thousands of people on the beach on their phones, and it swamped the local broadband and what can actually speed.

Av died from like 11:00 on Saturday. We started at 10:00 and 11:00. Everything just ground down to a hat where I could basically just stream the live room. I couldn’t bring any Zoom in and stream that back out because I was using OBS to do the live stream, and I could manage to get one of the streams stable after about 06:00 in the afternoon when people started going away. Unfortunately, we had enough prerecorded stuff that people had given us that we’d already uploaded to the server, that we could slot that in.

And like, I we had a guy in Bristol, which is the other side of the country who was running all of the background stuff and doing all of the Facebook, you know, advertising and bring people in and stuff like that, trying to get people’s attention. And he was uploading these videos, placing them at the right time on the right channel and things like that for us. And there was another chap in the back or there were two chaps in the back in the tent doing similar stuff, and we managed to pull it off.

Wow.

Okay. So for people who don’t know or haven’t used it yet, OBS is open broadcaster software, and it is the really cool, free, open source, cross platform streaming switching recording solution. And a lot of us AV been getting for video to it now that a lot of things are going online. Yeah.

Yeah. It’s a really handy video stuff.

Another thing that you said that I thought was really cool is that you had backups. So that’s one of the questions we are going to get into a little bit later. But one of the things that people have been asking about is, you know, what to do about latency and what to do about connection issues. And we’ve all seen this online, even, like, these big sort of what seems like high value, expensive, high production value events, like they can’t do anything to ensure the connection quality of people at their homes.

So, for example, I watched a live reading of the original cast of Princess Bride a couple of nights ago, and my friends and I were texting back and forth, and one of them, AV said, hey, this looks as bad as basically any Webex meeting I’ve had to go to for work. And I was like, yeah, that’s true. They’re having the same audio and video issues that we all have all the time. So it’s really kind of leveled the playing field. It doesn’t matter how good your technology, AV, how good your team is.

Like, you still can’t fix people’s connections on their end. You can’t control everything. And so it sounds like one of the backup solutions that we should have and that you had is to have some pre recorded content. So in case everything goes wrong, you can throw that up. Was that the situation?

Well, the pre recorded content came about kind of accidentally because we gain into the event a week beforehand. We you know, I started trying to contact all of the artists and do my preproduction stuff and trying to do sound checks and things or video checks or whatever you want to call them, and found that there was a lot of people that were AV, not in the same place that they were going to be in B didn’t have access to the equipment that they were going to use on the day when I was available to do the sound check or C, we’re just like, oh, I’ve used Zoom on these things before, and it was really crap.

Can I just send you a recording? So we started accepting prerecorded bits, and as they came in, they were getting uploaded onto the server for the TV channel. The AV been uploaded. And when it all fell to pieces were like, what are we going to do? Wait a minute. We’ve got a piece of stuff from these guys. And having the guy in another town that wasn’t being swamped by all of these people coming to the beach was a godsend, you know, because he’s on the other side of the country.

And this is another thing is, you know, I’ve done stuff where I’ve done the pre sound check the day before, and I’m doing with a guy in Australia, and he’s in a different time zone and a different thing. And all of this and the throttling that happens because it’s kind of like airplane seats, you know, they oversell the airplane because they know some people aren’t gain to turn up. And then when it’s too full, they just basically say, oh, sorry, you can’t get on. And they oversaw the broadband subscriptions because they know that not everybody’s gain use it all the time.

And then at 06:00 on Friday afternoon, when everybody gets home from work and school and goes to switch on Netflix and check their email and do whatever it is that they do at 06:00, it slows down everywhere, and it’s like traffic. It never happens the same twice in two weeks. You know, it depends on what’s going on. So I’ve done a sound check one day, and then the next day, I’ve gone to log on with the guy and his broadband connections. Absolutely rubbish. The day before, it was solid.

The best one I’ve had was a guy up a mountain in Columbia who’s paid 300 quid for a mast to be put up. And he’s got six up and six down, which seems really small, but it was so stable and so clean he could actually get some good volume out of it without a glitching.

Okay.

And then just before his last song, one of his dogs kicked the plug out of the wall and his brother shut off. And I just like I just said, I think that we’ve lost him, you know, and he’s popped back in Gain and done one more song. It was great. So it doesn’t matter how much pre production stuff you do. The last one I did, the other chap in the room had left his microphone open, and I just handed over to the artists to do their preamble AV introductions.

And I’m trying to get one more guy logged into the meeting, and I’m shouting instructions to somebody over the phone to the other guy and it’s coming up his onto the meeting. They’re like, Ed, we can hear you. And I’m like me. No, because we’ve got three people in the same space, all on a Zoom meeting, all on headphones. And we’re all trying to have a chat beforehand and go through how it’s all gain to flow. And then we’re trying to bring in the host from somewhere else.

And he wasn’t AV his PC and was trying to get Zoomed to work on somebody else’s machine. And, you know, he’s not attack, and it caused a little bit of delay, so it’s really kind of bite the bullet and just go with it. I think from my point of view.

Yeah, it reminds me a little bit of the conversations that I’ve had over the years with other podcasters who we’re always trying to figure out. How do we get you AV the interview? E to have a solid recording. And so, you know, from the emails I’ve been sending you, I have this list of all these things that I try to get you to do. Please use headphones. Please be in a quiet room, et cetera, et cetera. I have this whole list, and then someone will follow all those rules, and then they still figure out some way for the recording to sound terrible.

There’ll be some loud clock in the background or something will always go wrong. So it’s just part of the surprises that come up when you’re trying to connect with people like we’re doing now. And so we’ve already sort of been talking about this for a while, but I wonder if you could maybe go over some of the biggest mistakes you see people making who are new to either remote mixing or live streaming events. So like having your dog near the plug, that’s a mistake. What are some of the other common mistakes that you see sort of messing up live events?

Well, when I was setting up to do this recording, I pulled out up four to one that I had laying about that I borrowed off of a friend for something I did a couple of weeks ago, and I popped it up and I sounded absolutely glorious. And then my computer started updating in the background and the fan kicked in and I could hear the fan noise cause the four two ones so wide. So I swapped to I think this is a four four one, which means that if I move my head just a little bit off access, I get quiet, but it doesn’t pick up the fan noise.

So picking your equipment is quite important. Trying to making sure that the WiFi is plugged into your PC is a number one place of flower connection, a wired connection. Go through the settings and turn off the stuff in Zoom. So I’ve talked to so many people through this. You got to turn off the automatic adjust microphone volume to start with.

Okay, that’s under audio.

Under settings, that’s in the audio settings. And for some reason, on Max that pins it all the way to Full all the time, which is really boring. But then you have to do some stuff with the sound card and fix it that way. But on my PC, I can turn that up and down. Then you go into Advanced, and they’ve now removed the two options that I used to always get people to turn off, which was the suppression for background noise. Leave the Echo cancellation on, and then there’s a button show in meeting option for an able original sound.

And if you’re using a sound card, make sure that’s ticked, cause then you get what’s coming out of the microphone without any crap. And then the trick is to not overdrive Zoom. And I know that it’s got a little blue line or on the Max, it’s got a green and red line that shoots back and forth like an Led display.

Yeah. Has a little neater there. Yeah.

Yeah, but it because the algorithms designed for speech, when you start putting full spectrum audio through it, it craps out. When you get much past half and starts glitching, and lots of people will try to do that thing of getting it as loud as they can. And that’s the big, big, big thing is turn it down and you’ll get a better audio quality out of it. It won’t be that lovely, rich, full thing that everybody wants, but at least it’ll be clean and stable from the beginning to the end.

Just ortion free.

Yeah, well, it’s not distortion as such. It cutters. So there’ll be a dynamic bit in the music, and suddenly you’ll get, like a half a second where it’s gone away to think, and then it comes back and the music’s there again, you know, and you can get rid of that by just turning the volume down. So it’s not like flipping or anything. It’s just literally a break in the tune, like the Max headroom kind of thing. You know, for anybody that’s old enough to know who he is.

Do you know about this enabled stereo setting? Can I ask you a question about that?

I found it in the PC one, but apparently it’s unavailable on the Mac version. I don’t mind a Mac, so it’s on yours. Okay.

Yeah.

So, yeah, it’s buried somewhere in the settings, and I’ve picked it on all three of my versions because I’ve got three machines, and sometimes I’m doing testing, and I have to have all three of them running at once, and I’ve just gone through and I’ve made all the settings the same on all of them because I got three accounts. I only have one upgraded at the moment, but I use the other two for testing and things like that.

Okay, so the problem that I ran into this year’s Lifetime summit is that Ken Putman Jutan wanted to share some live mixing with us, and that worked well enough. We figured out a trick. I don’t know if it’s really a trick, but the problem that we had Lifetime Semi, 220 and 19 is that we were trying to mix voice and music into the same gain to the same pipe and then put that into the microphone input. Av, Zoom and Zoom does not like that. If you put anything that’s not voice into the microphone input, then it thinks that there’s background noise and it’ll just turn the whole thing down.

But if you share your screen and then choose include computer audio, then you have a second input and then you can put music into that.

Now I’ll probably even come across that yet. I know about the sharing the computer audio trick to get gain videos and things like that. I didn’t have that ticked on one of my presentations, and that caught me out. Sure.

So one thing we figured out this year, AV Lifetime Summit is that if you share screen and choose Enable computer audio, then you have the second input that shows up, and then you can put music through that, and it works great. Enable stereo also works most of the time. And so we were able to share a stereo mix. It was streaming. It does not get recorded, though. So we’re recording to the cloud.

And have you tried to record the machine because you have two options. When you go into the record settings, you have two options. One is recorded to the cloud and the other one is recorded. Call to your machine. So if you’re recording to your machine, does it behave the same way?

No, I couldn’t get it to record either way in stereo.

Okay.

Unfortunately, Zoom is so busy now that their support is terrible. You can’t call them, and if you email them, they’ll just send you this automated response that says, hey, we’re really busy. And so they never got back to me about that question. So if anyone knows the answer to how you record in stereo, I’d love to figure that out.

I think probably doing what we’re doing here with Audacities the one.

Yeah. That mean that’s what I ended up doing in this situation is I ran a separate app in the background. I think I use audio hijack Pro, and I just recorded everything that was going on so I could have my own stereo recording. And then I just edited that in later. But it was very extreme stereo.

But not recorded in the recording settings. There’s also an option to record AV MP three of the audio, right. As a separate track. Av, you listened back and see what’s on that.

Yeah, I did try that. And that was all still in mono. It.

Yeah. I’m not using Zoom so much as a recording platform. I’m using it as a way of streaming to Facebook or, you know, if I want to do something more complicated or I’m doing something in the room, because the problem with OBS that I found is it’s really good and it’s really high quality if it’s all in your space. But to try to get AV remote camera feed into it and then stream that there’s OBS Ninja, but that that’s really, really dependent on somebody else’s server, and whether it’s busy or not, as to the quality that you’re getting there’s, stream Yard, I think, is one of them.

Okay, I’m looking at DB Ninja. So it says Add Group Chat camera, so you can bring in all of these other sources that I guess normally aren’t included in OBS.

What DB Ninja does is like with Stream Yard and Stage ten, that’s it. So with Stream Yard and Stage ten, which are browser based streaming options, you can log in from multiple sources and then combine them so you can have three people in three different locations streaming to you, and then you can mix them together like you do with OBS, with your different inputs. But with OBS, you don’t have that option as such. And this guy is a Canadian guy’s name I can’t remember at the moment has put this OBS Ninja together.

And if you go on your phone and type OBS Ninja into the search and click Add Camera, you get a little key that you then it’s a URL with a key in it, and you can then put that into the OBS in the browser setting. I think it is in your sources, and that then streams into DB from that camera. But it’s not greatly stable. It’s not stable enough to do much more than those kind of quick interview things that you see on the news when they’re holding their camera up and going, yes.

And there’s a fire in the Houses of Parliament today, an AV. Somebody threw petrol over the Prime Minister. Oh, no. Sorry. I didn’t say that online, did I?

Okay, cool. So, yeah, I’m looking through these things that you just mentioned, and they’re all kind of just different solutions for basically input and switching. So getting different inputs from different people from all over the world and helping you sort of AV a one man show, because I guess that’s what a lot of people are doing now. Like, how do I change?

How do I do my a lot of this is from Gain.

Okay.

So I think it’s a gain develop. It’s been developed around Gain, so you can have I don’t know what it is, but lots of gamers like to watch other gamers gain and learn tricks and things, and they stream their gain. And there’s a lot of this kind of stuff has come from gaming. So IEM kind of hacking gamer tech. Or I was trying to hack game or tech to make it work on for music and found that it’s not really working yet. It’s not fast enough yet.

The Internet is not stable enough. And my first machine, I had to go out and buy a new computer with like I had 500 quid that I could spend. And I bought myself a a Dell that’s got an Ie seven in it and 16 gig and 500 gain on the hard drive. And it works. And I’ve got another couple of weeks later I had another 100 quid and AV bought. I think it’s AOC that plugs in AV a second screen on a USB three and powers off of the USB three.

And I got AV Gigabit switch that’s got 16. It’s a managed Gigabit switch that’s got 16 inputs on it. I’ve sectioned that off into two different switches, one of them’s limited, one of them’s not, and an old Ederal. And this all fits in my laptop bag and I can take it with me, you know, and just go and set this up anywhere with a couple of microphones and do a Gig. So and I’ve been actually going to somebody else’s house to do the streaming for a couple of these things because he’s part of the community and he’s got Gigabit Internet and they haven’t got the fiber to my house yet here.

And I’m in London and the fiber is not coming yet. So when it does, I won’t have to walk 40 minutes to his house, but it’s nice to go and see him. And it’s a lovely walk down the river. And I get to say to the Swans on the way. And it’s great. Get my email.

This is going to be so boring for some people. I got to share with you that I’m so excited about our new house because although I am now calling to you Ted through my phone because we don’t have our Internet set up. When my wife was asking me like, okay, when we’re looking for houses, like, what are your criteria? What are you interested in? And I said, hey, all I care about is that we have actual fiber fiber because our old place is only a mile away.

But we were just talking about Lifetime Summit. And every year what would happen is we finished Lifetime Summit. And then I have these Gigabytes and Gigabytes and Gigabytes AV video that I have to upload to YouTube and other places. And it would just take days, days to upload from my place because all I had was fucking Comcast like a DSL or whatever. But I could walk like half a mile down the street to my friend Dave’s house who had fiber and upload it in like 30 seconds.

It was crazy. So I was like, okay, this is all I care about for our new place.

This is the thing that I was struggling with with the Spirit Fest event that I did where I had somebody who was literally up a mountain in Switzerland trying to they recorded an HD video because I got asked by the guy, give me HD, and it’s like four gig of video for an hour on performance. They’ve done it on their phone and they’re trying to upload it and it’s too big. And the other thing is there’s things like Mel, big file com, and we transfer and there’s a bunch of them that let you upload or send large files to different people.

And we tried Dropbox. Dropbox is too complicated for some people because you can send them a link, but they have to then go into the Dropbox and open up there, open up a Dropbox account and then agree to the link and accept this and do it. And it’s like five steps. And they just they’re musician people and they’re not technically minded and that’s they get frustrated and put it down and walk away from it. So it’s like, you know, the other big problem that I had with all of this is trying to find a quick, easy way to get high quality video from somebody gain faraway land on a really, really bad connection, like the phone to, you know, the guy who put this all together, he lives in a trailer park down by the seaside, and they’ve got a super big connection at the trailer park.

But really it then beams all over the trailer park by WiFi. And he’s got like this little tiny sliver of it. And he found that he was actually having to go to the local McDonalds and sit in his car outside the local McDonald’s and log into the free WiFi and McDonald’s, which is something I’ve done around the world because McDonald’s has free WiFi around the world and you can sit out or go in and buy a coffee and use the free WiFi models to do stuff because the hotel Internet where I was so poor that somebody bought a new Mac and bought nice Neyman and bought a sound card and bought the Pro Tools license.

And I went into the hotel to try to set this all up, and I couldn’t get it to download Pro Tools overnight on the hotel WiFi, even though we are the upgrade. So I went to the McDonald’s and used the free McDonald’s WiFi at 02:00 in the morning. It took 40 minutes. It’s just totally nuts. So, yeah, broadband is find it where you can and use it where you can.

So, Ed, we’ve been talking for a while. I just wanted to try and sum up some of the things I’ve been getting from you and to really make these live streaming events work. Sounds like some of the most important things are. Number one, make sure that your set up is solid. So you have a good computer, you AV fast Internet, you have a wired connection. Make sure that your site is solid. Number two, you are doing pre production meetings with everyone who’s gain to be online ahead of time, at least like the day before, running through all the steps, making sure that they’re connection to thousand number three.

Oh, go ahead.

And during that preproduction thing, I’m doing my sound check using their equipment, and I’m just talking them through it. So patients, I keep getting told how patient I am. And yesterday, one of the girls that we did the two £0 for the trees, the Tree Sisters, three sisters, org if you want to go and have a look at it or look at their site, and she called me up and she says, oh, I’ve got this new mic and I’ve got a new sound card, and I’ve got to Zoom on Friday.

Can you help me get this all set up? And basically, I spent 2 hours going through every connection and trying to figure out why her new Universal Audio wasn’t outputting sound. And she hadn’t turned on the software in the computer that lets the Universal Audio there’s a little mixer, and that makes it work. And then once we got that on, I did the remote desktop thing like I did during our presentation and went into it and found one of the freebies that took a little while to find which the freebies.

We had to get her to log in and go through the list and stuff and found the free compressor or AV free audio channel with it’s a valve audio channel with little bit of EQ and some Reverb. And set that up for her remotely in the software for the Universal Audio and saved it for so that when she turns up AV the next place because she’s in an Airbnb somewhere else, and she’s streaming from somebody else’s house, you know, for the next event. And when she turns up and plugs her computer and she can hit recall and gets that those settings back on.

And that is the core of it. One of the people had one of the little Zoom mixers that goes with the L one, and it’s got a compressor and EQ. And I’m talking people through, so if you press the EQ button, what do you see? And they’re saying, yeah, well, I’ve got gain. And then I’ve got QY. And then I’ve got frequency. And I’m like, okay, put the frequency at 250, put the queue at .3 and then take it down a little bit. Yeah. And suddenly the guitar becomes clear and they can’t hear any of this.

And then I’m like, yeah, just touch a little bit of Reverb onto that. And I’m actually doing I’m talking people through. I’m mixing by proxy using a musician AV, my proxy, who’s never actually touched one of these things before. And, you know, having the Zoom meeting going and then taking the phone and having a WhatsApp video call so that they can show me what actually equipment they’re working on. And I can then say, oh, yeah, you see the third dial down, turn that one a little bit to the right.

And then I’m like, no, no, no, too much. Just back a little bit. And then it’s like, yeah, that’s good. And I seem to be getting good results. And people keep asking me, it’s not paying very well, but, you know, that can only improve as this becomes more of the new normal or we’ll start doing more gigs. But I’ve got a feeling we got a second lockdown coming. I’ve just been on a trip through Holland and Belgium and France for I got a place over in the north of France and I had to see some people in Holland about some potential work.

And while I was out there, they changed the rules. Gain, And I had to do two weeks of quarantine when I got back and AV come at a quarantin on the day that they’ve changed the rule from you can have meetings of 30 people to an AV, our gatherings of 30 people, too. You can have gatherings of six people. Gain, and so a couple of small things where there’s like, a group of people. Gain, to get together and do a gig. And you can have 30 people in the room.

So you can have, like three or four bands in the same place at the same time and do something and then stream that that’s gone. That’s gone again. You know, it’s just finding things that work and making it work. The PayPal PayPal is great. Friends did the last the Three Sisters gig. I set up a PayPal what’s it called. It’s a PayPal money pool. And I just had somebody on the other computer in the room and I’m showing Adam numbers as the donations are coming in on my phone and saying, we just got another £10.

Just got another £50. We’re up to 400 quid. And then somebody dropped 500 quid all in one go. And he’s putting that up on the Facebook well, this is all well, the people are playing and I’m typing instructions on the Zoom chat to the people that are singing, saying, you know, can you move back from the microphone inches, please? Because they’ve gone off well, it wasn’t there bit and come back in and they’ve sat down there. It was great. They were given this great big, huge empty room and they’ve got one large diaphragm condenser and an acoustic guitar and a voice.

And it sounded brilliant. And then they got too close and it started doing that glitchy thing. So I’m like, Can you just move back, please? And you have to wait until they’re looking at the screen to hit the send because it kind of drifts up middle of the screen and they’ll miss it if they’re looking somewhere else. And you wait till the end of the track with it Typed in and hit go, and it appears and they’ll go, oh, and you can see their eyes go light and they move back six inches.

And suddenly it was nice. Gain, sure.

Yeah. So many little details to keep track of and figure out how to do the jobs that we’ve always done in person. But over the Internet. And the third point that I just to wrap up this discussion, gain having some backup recorded content in case everything goes wrong or you can’t get someone. And it sounds like one way to make sure you do that is just have that on your checklist for pre production. So you do the preproduction call, you make sure that the person’s connection as well, and then maybe record something with them and say, hey, record some of the things that you were going to say, and then you have that as your backup.

Yeah, that’s a good plan. Recording the soundtrack, get them to play a little bit of stuff. The other thing is the guy that we had on the other side of the country, he was going on to YouTube and taking stuff that AV been posted on their channels and just dropping it in because it’s already been published and it’s the right act, and we cheated a little bit, but we did have quite a bit of prerecorded stuff from different acts, and we change the scheduling around a little bit, but be fluid with it.

This isn’t like AV, where you can have every single minute of it written out on a script and it’s going to get followed. And you’ve got a big team of people that are going to make sure that happens. It’s all really kind of a new thing. It’s getting better. My friend John Brown that I had on that did the electronic music side of it. I was just talking to him and he’s just put a fiber network and AV Land network into something called the Guild Hall School of Music in London, which is quite famous.

And they just did a 90 piece Orchestra playing together from four different places in the school. Now, this isn’t using the Internet, and all of the audios being done on Dante and the latency is very, very slight, but they got 90 people in an Orchestra playing in four different spaces playing together, and it worked cool. The trick that he said was don’t worry about syncing the audio and the video, because the 40 milliseconds of latency they’ve got on the video by the time it goes out and comes back, that’ll screw up everything and people will hear that.

So leave the audio as it is and let there be some latency with the video. So when the conductor is doing his thing, that’s not too bad, because the musicians are listening to each other and they’re playing with each other. It’s not all about the video. So.

So I wanted to mention you mentioned two Thin Haze microphones, and I just had to look them up to make sure I remembered what they were. So the 421 is a cardioid polar pattern in the 441 is super cardioid.

Yes, this is the four and one I saw one on a high hat the other day on a video that was done about some Motown stuff. It’s super flat. It’s almost like Bardy AMIC 201 and its flatness goes very high. It’s got a small condenser in it are not a small condensed or a small dynamic in it, and it does quite good high end. And the four two ones got a slightly bigger diaphragm and it can make strings sound good. And they’re both kind of old school mics.

But a lot of the people I know have these and they’re floating around.

Let’s talk about pain. I would love to hear a story from you about the biggest AV, maybe most painful mistake that you’ve made on the job and what happened afterwards. Oh.

That’S there’s been a lot of pain in my world, the biggest and most painful thing I’ve ever done. I don’t know whether that’s gain to be physical pain of getting in the truck with a bunch of people that didn’t know how to lift and trying to hold that box up so that that young kid didn’t get crushed. Or it could have been the day that I smacked somebody in the pub after work for being I was too drunk. Okay.

Yeah, that sounds painful. Which one do you want to talk about?

Well, yeah. One of my biggest clients dropped me like a hot potato after that one. I don’t have a great recollection of the incident other than I was in Barcelona on a corporate gig. And we’d all gone to the bar across the road and we’re drinking stuff that AV think it was Astrella it AV started early in the afternoon because we AV finished early that day and went to the beach bar and then carried on in the evening. And basically drinking at work has been, you know, and there’s been other things that I’ve done at work over the years, but I try not to do those anymore, but drinking at work is something that’s used to be cool, used to be part of the pay package.

I remember my first job at the Blue Note. I got two free drinks. I would get two free drinks and drinks tickets for a pound after AV pound to go afterwards. And that’s just not how things are anymore. You know, the industry’s changed. There’s a lot of people now that have gone to College and University and come straight out into a world full of guys that have been lifting heavy shit at the back of trucks for 20 years and go and get pissed afterwards because it hurts and the two are really related.

Actually, I think because when I started doing hot yoga a couple of years ago and straighten my back out and discovered I’ve been walking around with chronic back pain, and I’d been drinking and smoking and doing all sorts to try to mask that and take care of yourself physically. It will help take care of yourself mentally. As well. You know, number of times I’ve gone through an airport and AV breakfast beers at 06:00 a.m. Just so that I can get another hour’s Kip on the plane before I get to the next gig.

And you get back afterwards. And you have two or three weeks of this post tour depression. And one of the things that’s quite easy to do is just go and go to the pub and see your mates at the pub. And there’s a couple of guys that do touring. One of them is a video guy. One of them is a lighting guy. And one of them is a drummer that live local to me. And I saw one of them playing in the local pub the other day.

It was quite nice to see everybody, and there were no microphones involved. It was a jazz for a kind of gig.

Thing that happened to Barcelona was this sort of a wake up call for you. And you’re like, okay, I can’t can’t keep going on the phone. Real.

Hit was another one of those kind of epiphany moments, like when the hail storm and the Thunder and lightning came. And then I walked in and there was that tune on. And I was, you know, on my way to the next gig and I got a phone call. And I didn’t actually recall the incident until somebody reminded me of it. And basically, AV bought somebody a drink. And they, you know, they’d been given it the large salad. And their dad was somebody high up in the firm.

And he was a bit of a noob. And he didn’t get on well with the client. And I was giving him a hard time in the bar about it afterwards because he needed an ego adjustment, I suppose. I thought he needed one swathed in beer and I was giving him a hard time. And one of the other guys that in his age group from the warehouse, AV. And I know him from time. And he was cool. He stepped in and poked me in the chest and said, oh, behave.

And I I smacked him outside the cheek, not tremendously hard, but it was enough that the guy who I’d been, you know, giving a hard time went back and told his dad. And his dad told the owner. And the owner told my line manager. And by the time I got through all of that, I was not flavor of the month anymore. Yeah.

There you go.

So yeah. But, you know, as one door closes, another one opens. And it opened up time for me to do other things.

Sure.

And, you know, I ended up going touring with these Pakistani guys around the world for six years. That’s a whole other side of stories.

Well, AV to schedule another interview just to talk about touring with Pakistan musicians. That’ll be great. And is there one book you could recommend that AV been really helpful to you?

Yes. As I mentioned earlier, I went to a recording art school for about six months when I was just out of high school. And it was one of the books that I got. And it’s called Microphones by Martin Clifford third edition. And I think the subtitle is how they work and how to use them. And it’s not just a book about microphones. It goes through it’s a paperback about an inch inch and a half thick. And it goes through all kinds of things about acoustics and reflection, reflective surfaces, and just a lot of the really basic things that I absorbed.

That when I started doing live stuff, I could actually understand and walk into a space and understand how is the space gain to react. And I ended up doing a few kind of studio mods where we’ve gone in and done soundproofing in Studios and things and how parallel walls work to create standing waves. And then discovering that standing waves are actually a little bit kind of simplistic because there are 2d thing, and we work in a 3d world. So there’s eigenmodes, which is three DB standing waves that’s more like bubbles of high and low pressure or pressure and rarefaction that occur at sub in the subbase region, depending on the size of the space.

You know. And then the other thing that I discovered is that I went into my friend’s studio and did some measurements because he was having some trouble with the low end in his monitoring room and discovered that it’s not the flat walls that you’re looking at. It’s the corners, because that’s where the distance in the corners is where you get your first problem, because you’ve got three faces joining together and three is joining together. And the standing wave develops between that opposite corners rather than the walls.

Just think, okay. And, you know, so you get a lump when you look at it, when you pink noise with smart, you get a lump where you get a doubling, and then you get a sock out. And when you do the math, it’s the distance of that corner to corner rather than the length of the room or the width. So this is all way before there was computer modeling that was accessible to us. When I was in the warehouse, it was still analog control gear. And I remember being at the Albert Hall.

And we hung something in the round for the Cliff Richard’s 40th anniversary gigs. And it was in there for like a month. So they wanted to do a proper job. And they had turbo sound, flood, and flash hung around the center stage, all pointing each one. Each row was pointing at a different balcony. And then up on the top, they had some JBL kind of near field stuff that was all. And it’s an Oval, so it’s not quite a circle. And it was all being fed off of one matrix through an SPX 90 and he just, you know, took a Sharpie and AV condenser and put the condenser on the desk and tapping the Sharpie on the desk.

And there was a guy with a radio up in the gods saying, One more, one more click down, one more click down, one more click on going around trying to find the sweet spot so that it sounded nice when you walked around the hole because it wasn’t into sections and there was no fiber with thousands of outputs on Dante that you could tweak each different channel on. It was basic stuff and see IEM put in. Then there’s no laser measuring device and time alignment. That’s how they did it.

And seeing them put in a bunch of flood and flash around the pitch at twicking and rugby ground. And we ran three 7 km of soccer PEX cabling in the drains for two days. And then these boxes on their sides pointed up the sides of the the tiered seating and then incorporating that in with the enhanced Hanoi system and, you know, and then watching them clip lapel mic on the backs of people shirts in the marching band, so that when the guys playing the trumpet, the guy in front of IEMs picking up the trumpet behind him as they’re marching around the pitch and just all these really old school ways of doing stuff to make things work.

And I got to see all of this. And that was gave me inspiration to be creative with EQing, with time alignment, with so many different things before we had the tools available. And then as the tools became available, it became easier and quicker to do these things, you know, and now the next set of tools is Zoom.

And it’s just the next thing to learn.

Yeah, next thing to learn. And I’m sure something’s going to come soon, and it’s going to be ten times better than Zoom. But for the moment, zooms, the next tool in OBS and these other, you know, everybody’s stage ten. I haven’t heard much great stuff about it falls over quite easily the stream yard. Lots of people have been using that because it’s a little bit better than you get a better quality out of it than the Zoom. If everybody’s got a good connection, but you’re going through their server and your control and stuff like that, and it’s just not quite you got to have the people at the other end a little bit techy savvy.

They’re not quite ready for that yet, I don’t think.

Well, Ed, where is the best place for people to follow your work at the moment?

I would say go and have a peruse of the Spirit Fest AV 20 festival. I think that’s still up. Okay. And then I’ve got a couple of things on all about Love Gatherings, which is a Facebook page. And then I did another one for Bright Sky, which is on Facebook. I’ve always been the guy in the background behind the camera, trying to stay out of short and not not using these tools to publicize myself and be the guy that everybody. I’ve got a group of people that call me.

And every once in a while, somebody I haven’t seen an age call me up or somebody refers me to somebody new. But I haven’t really taken advantage of, you know, advertising. And this is probably the first thing this and the demonstration we did during year seminar was the first thing I’ve done online. So I don’t have a lot of stuff that’s labeled as mine and up there.

Yeah, well, so people should definitely check that out, and they can take a look at your presentation from Lifetime Summit. So, Ed Kingston, thank you so much for joining me on Sound Design Live.

Thank you so much for having me.

You Need A Sound System Preflight Checklist

By Nathan Lively

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In this episode of Sound Design Live my guest is by applications engineer for touring systems at L-Acoustics, Vic Wagner. We discuss sound system tuning, immersive audio, modular workflows, benchmarking performance and designing loudspeaker presets.

I ask:

  • What are some of the biggest mistakes you see people making who are new to designing, deploying, and optimizing touring systems?
  • What do I need to verify to make sure I uncover any problems that will slow me down later?
  • Kyle Marriott: Can he explain how they reach the published specs for KARA II please? What stimulus, how long for, downhill with the wind behind it, the like?
  • Lee Stevens: Especially as they use the same components at KARA, how have they achieved the extra SPL?
  • Dave Gammon: Immersive sound is a huge new area of development. Do they see all large format production moving to L-ISA Format?
    • Explain the reasons why they don’t use SMAART as a defacto tool for system calibrations.
    • Why do you use sine sweeps for your measurement stimulus instead of a broadband signal like pink noise?
  • Tom McKeand: CA-COM… why?
  • Chris Prendergast: Detail how ‘their’ wave sculpture technology has developed over the decades
  • Ben Heavenrich: In his opinion, what separates L’Acoustics from the rest of the pack?
  • Stage Craft: How they design their presets?
  • b.meiners: How to achieve tonal balance with smaller line arrays?
  • Christian Friedrich: If smaller boxes are used for downfill at the bottom of the array, won’t that produce the same problem as gain shading?
  • Christopher Pou: Vic’s had quite the career, being an SE for such notable mixers as Scovill and Pooch. If it’s within reason to venture outside of the brown box realm, I’d be curious to hear his opinions on some other rigs he’s deployed; I’d say most curiously ANYA, as it stands out above others considering the flexibility it offers in terms of DSP-based steering and control.
  • Yves Smit: Can I combine kara and Kara-2 in an array?
  • Dan Barrett: How many toddlers does he think he could take in a fight?
  • Nico Díaz: Stereo vs Mono: If the stereo image is mainly enjoyed by few out of many, in a live event, could a single wide dispersion line array provide a more uniform coverage?

It comes down to identifying a workflow and a checklist specific to verification and calibration.

Vic Wagner

Notes

  1. All music in this episode by Mello C.
  2. Preflight checklist: In aviation, a preflight checklist is a list of tasks that should be performed by pilots and aircrew prior to takeoff. Its purpose is to improve flight safety by ensuring that no important tasks are forgotten. Failure to correctly conduct a preflight check using a checklist is a major contributing factor to aircraft accidents. –Wikipedia
  3. Touring Systems Optimization: Modular Workflow for Efficient Calibration
  4. workbag: TruPulse Rangefinder, P1, iSEMcon EMX7150
  5. Books: The Complete Guide to Highend Audio, Idea Factory, Failure Is Not an Option,
  6. Podcasts: Switched On Pop
  7. Quotes
    1. It comes down to identifying a workflow and a checklist specific to verification and calibration.
    2. We want to think about obstacles that can disrupt our workflow.
    3. Reach out to the manufacturer and immerse yourself in their recommended guidelines.

Transcript

This transcript was automatically generated. Please let me know if you discover any errors.

I’m Nathan Lively, and today I’m joined by applications engineer for Touring Systems at L-Acoustics, Vic Wagner. Vic, welcome to Sound Design Live.

Glad to be here.

So I definitely want to talk to you about sound system tuning, immersive audio and designing presets. But before I do that, after you get a sound system set up, what is one of your maybe favorite pieces of music to play to just get familiar with it?

I don’t think you’re going to like my answer here.

I’m not going to like it.

I’m a big fan these days of virtual playback. I’m a big fan of once you get the system calibrated to, you know, get some playback from a show previous or some kind of tracks and try to optimize or maximize the signal flow of your drive systems of console to any outboard gear and then kind of use that as the most accurate stimulus for for kind of verifying the system or do any kind of critical listening.

No, that’s perfect. That’s the thing that’s like freshest in your mind and you’re most familiar with because you have been working with it for the last who knows how many days. So as soon as it comes on, you’re going to immediately get a bunch of information.

Yeah. Now, my thing is, is that I think it’s good to do some ear training. It’s definitely good to dig into some hi fi stuff, dig into some kind of reference tracks and things like that, and think about scale. Think about listening to those those tracks on different sized systems. But that’s really just to kind of get an idea for frequency response and kind of how systems respond at different levels. But I think these days I just especially in the touring domain, is to really think about using content that’s relevant to the to the production.

And I think it’s pretty easy to do with modern mixing consoles. I mean, you can do it with a variety of different doors. And every every professional console allows you to play that back through the system. And I think that’s just a good kind of step towards verification to make sure all your outpoured gear and everything in the signal flow is working properly and acting responsibly as you like. So.

So how did you get your first paying gig in audio?

You know, this is kind of goes back to see maybe grade school days kind of volunteering at the community theater, honestly, just kind of working for some variety shows and mixing my buddy’s bands and and kind of doing some some high school musical stuff, drama club, those kind of things. But I think we’re really kind of took form, so to speak, being like, hey, well, this is something that I that I could do professionally is working with some some regional providers and kind of seeing some guys that build their own speakers kind of in the garage.

And that’s where I really understood this is a career path that, you know, is very scientific and exacting, but also musical and offers a fair amount of, I guess, esthetic leeway, so to speak.

And did you start working with those guys?

Yeah, I mean, it was it was doing shows in parks and kind of festivals and things like that and kind of kind of seeing, you know, we had to better get bigger systems and mixing with them and things like that.

How did you meet these guys who are doing who were building speakers in the garage? I’m just wondering, like, if I wanted to kind of recreate your path a little bit, like what are some things I should do to meet people who are doing shows and building speakers?

Well, it’s a little I think it’s a little more professional these days in in regards there’s a, you know, brands that focus on these kind of things. But this was, you know, me volunteering. And as the shows got more complex and, you know, touring, artists came in and expect larger systems or more complex systems. You know, we needed larger wedges. And this is obviously the day of days of wedges where I feel like a lot of the stuff is kind of in the erm domain these days.

But, you know, more complex kind of systems kind of comes up and in there. I think that that’s, that’s where we just kind of expanded and we had, we had to provide larger systems and those companies came in and I was, you know, volunteering or working kind of hourly wage at these places for for larger productions. And then and I guess I mean, you’re in Minneapolis, growing up in the Midwest, a lot of kind of summertime festivals going on.

So I was involved in that kind of circuit early on and able to kind of see what other people are doing and what touring people are doing.

Sure, I actually grew up in Texas, but the way my experience, the way I see my experience related to yours is that it was really helpful to work in a place where a lot of different artists were coming through. And I met a lot of people that way, which kind of helped me just see how work was done and also just start building relationships that later on could help me find work and do different projects.

Yeah, exactly. Now, speaking to that, I was just I was on a panel a couple of years back talking about kind of getting started and, you know, kind of these questions about how you can get an introduction to this industry. And I remember fondly reading kind of magazines, it was a bunch of trade magazines and stuff and all these kind of journals and. Realizing that at a pretty young age, that there’s a there’s a world out there like really professional potential, you know, there’s people that are doing this professional, there’s better products, there’s better you know, I always kind of think jokingly back to like, you know, these furry box wedges that are kind of the size of a small couch, know, and that’s very homemade.

But there’s better ways of doing things. And there’s a there’s a whole world of science and industry standardization that appealed to me. And I was kind of something that I want to become more a part of. But I think I wouldn’t have been aware of that potential without a lot of these kind of resources not getting these days. A lot of that stuff online and, you know, podcasts like this and that good in a way we all had and have gear envy you.

We want to get your hands on that stuff. And you kind of read these magazines and you can kind of feel bad like, oh, I’m not good enough because I don’t work on that stuff yet. But in your case, it also sounds like it was motivational and you’re like, oh, there’s this whole other world out there. And that’s kind of what you had your sights set on.

Yeah, totally. And that’s it was hugely. And I think that’s we need to make sure that those industries are thriving. And, you know, people students have access to those kind of things and those kinds of resources.

So, Vic, looking back in your career so far, can you take us to a place where things changed for you? Was there a moment when you decided, OK, I’m going to stop doing this thing and start doing this other thing? Can you tell us about maybe an important decision you made to get more of the work that you really love?

Yeah, you know, I kind of thought about this a lot of different angles. And, you know, I could talk about different gigs or different tours I jumped on and things like that. But I think we’re what really kind of ticked in the last decade or so of my career is that I found this kind of reward to really take the time to share my knowledge and experience with others and kind of teach some of these higher level skills and workflows and ultimately just inspire people.

And I kind of I think that was a really pivotal kind of decision. And I was thinking about it yesterday as I was looking through these questions. And I think that I could identify one place we were on tour, the big pop tour, and we had kind of a friend of a friend of a friend of the production had asked if we could have a some kind of production students and from the local college kind of come by and, you know, take a tour.

And it worked out really well where we were doing kind of we were kind of doing two ANORO shows. So we load in. And then we had that morning to kind of tech stuff and, you know, maybe have some time off and things like that and maybe get some rest because it’s kind of a strenuous schedule. But I took the time to get up early and kind of take these kids. Well, I guess a college kids, you know, young adults here through our I mean, everybody was kind of the lighting guys offered their their detail and their system.

And then I got to talk about front a house and kind of design and configuration and things like that and our our different system networks and things like that. And I just all all these guys are just really, really inspired by that. And we kept in touch over email and text and stuff over the next couple of years. And I think that that was a moment where, you know, I just took a couple hours out of my morning to talk about what I was, what I do and what our workflow is.

And, you know, these guys were just blown away by that. And I thought that’s a really rewarding feeling. And, you know, if that means that these guys are going to go and get a better result out of there, out of there, their productions or their deployments, I think that’s that can go a lot further than than anything else that I can do personally.

So so Vic, at this year’s LESSONED Summit, your presentation was called Touring Systems Optimization Modular Workflows for Efficient Calibration. And that, I think, is kind of a long title for basically saying being ready. And I’m so happy that you talked about this, at least on some. And if people want to watch your video, they can do that. A live Sound Design Live 20 20 does Sound Design Live dotcom. But the reason I was so looking forward to it is because you and I had a conversation earlier this year, in January, February, I think, where I asked you, like, what is the biggest challenge you see other people having out in the field?

And you said something to the effect of people are kind of not ready. They need to be prepared for any eventuality. They don’t have enough information. They’re not flexible enough. So things change, things go wrong, and they just like not ready, not handling as well as they could. So is that how you see it? And if so, how can I kind of think through some of these things and be prepared without just learning them all the hard way and going through all the thousands of mistakes that you and everyone else has already gone through.

So I think what this kind of comes down to is identifying a workflow, identifying checklist. And from the start, when we see that we kind of talked about in the system optimization presentation is looking at collecting information, talking about specifics, the calibration target verification and then calibration, but having kind of a. Checklist, a mentality of a checklist and a plan, and I say the plan of, you know, acquiring information and making sure certain parts of the system are determined and scaled adequately.

So there’s not any issues as we go through the verification process. And I think, you know, it acoustics. We spend a lot of time kind of thinking about this stuff internally and definitely teaching that in our in our trainings and then obviously kind of providing vertical solutions so people can can use this within our ecosystem. So I think, you know, it’s pretty easy for small deployments, but it becomes critical to stay sane and kind of keep on task and, you know, have a comfortable workday when you’re on tour.

So it’s even more important in those high pressure environments. And, you know, that was kind of one of the things I wanted to really bring to the to the live sound summit and really kind of exposed to the masses and kind of start a further conversation about this.

And, yeah, so that that makes a lot of sense to me. Work from a checklist, don’t make assumptions, have a plan. So the first thing that I wonder is can I just use your checklist? Like if I just had a copy of your checklist, would that work or would that not mean anything to me because yours is so personal? Or I guess I’m also realizing that a big part of your job is probably helping people build their own checklist before they go out on tour so that they have a plan.

Yeah, you said it. That’s that’s definitely, you know, helping people build their checklist and kind of work through those things. So I think a lot of that kind of comes down to preproduction planning that we talked about, this idea of kind of benchmarking system performance. So like thinking about what’s the audience coverage requirements, what’s the SPL distribution over the audience, what’s the target frequency response and how does that fit within different PHIL systems or coupled systems like flown sub, overground, sub, those kind of things, front fill out, fill delay speakers identifying those things across the board and then looking at where the the mics reference position is and then kind of consider source type and like what are the maximum SPL requirements?

Where do we need to stop coverage, start coverage? Is there any kind of mitigation if it’s an outdoor venue? So I think those are all really, really important things. And then yeah, then I think that that’s you want to determine the quality or the type of output bustline. Like I said, it was a very, very stereo mix as a dual mono. It’s an immersive mix. Is it left center, right kind of arrangement, things like that.

And you want to identify those things and ask a lot of tough questions and, you know, go through the process of designing different renditions or kind of being able to scale different parts of the of the system to adapt to those kind of things, to put the best solution forward for the bid or for the the writer. I kind of think about those things as far as and I think that’s one thing when you asked helping people is kind of thinking about how to scale through our product range.

So one of the things I kind of I just put a little quote on here is like when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem is nail. And I’m sure you’ve heard that before. But, you know, not every show needs to be deployed with a bunch of K one and cast twenty eight things like that. You know, we want to think about what are these frequency response requirements, what are the Aspell requirements, what are the coverage requirements.

And maybe we can do something that’s a little less invasive and provides a higher quality experience for the audience and the obviously client.

See so when you say modular workflows, then there’s parts of it that are going to change depending on certain variables. So can you kind of give me an example of that? Is that related to benchmarking or I guess you just gave us an example, which is you might not need all of the front fills that you had in the last location.

Yeah, exactly. So, yeah. So examples of the kind of modular stuff then. I think what we want to do is kind of build into the system some flexibility. And I think that’s one of the things is kind of have some quick ways to pivot. If something changes, if there’s a different audience configuration or different seating configuration or maybe like a VIP area that you didn’t anticipate or something like that, you know, have those kind of things.

But as far as verification before the calibration process, I definitely think we want to think about obstacles that can disrupt our workflow. So power everything up, make sure everything has adequate power, make sure network is connected, make sure you know your file is correct. The network manager file, for example, before you send that stuff, make sure you’re the left is going to the left amplifiers. The right is going to the right for those kind of systems.

Everything is bust and summed properly if you’re doing any of that kind of stuff out of the console. So I like to say kind of a go no go checklist policy of, you know, is the are these items on the network if they’re not on the network, like figure out why, you know, is there under voltage over voltage issue, check those kind of things. And I just being kind of a space nerd, I think, like we want to think about aerospace safety checklist, culture of checklists, you know, a preflight.

Analyst and think about, OK, if this isn’t working, we need to identify that problem before we get further in our day and it becomes more of a looming concern that’s going to slow down your your workflow.

I see. So in part two of your process here, modular verifications and calibration that it gets as detailed as here are all the things I’m expecting to see on the network. And so potentially, if this amp doesn’t show up and it’s throwing some kind of error, now’s a good time to solve that instead of moving forward and just hoping that it’ll get solved and then it becomes a bigger problem later on.

Yeah, I like to think too is like, OK, well, maybe there’s a problem with one of the amplifiers on House Left, you know, maybe you or someone part of your touring crew or whatever can look into that problem while you move on to a different task and then say, OK, let’s get that sorted out. Maybe I’m going to calibrate using the right side of the system, or I can move into another kind of part of the checklist, kind of chapter of the checklist, maybe verifying all the front of house outboard gear is working properly and set to the correct positions after being bounced for a thousand miles down the road.

Well, the problems being sorted out on on house after house. Right. But I guess I’d hate to see a situation where you start the calibration process and realize that a portion of the system’s not working properly or not working at all. Let’s just say, for example, like one circuit isn’t passing audio out of the system, and now you’re in a situation where the wavefront integrity of the system isn’t actually how it was predicted when you did the design in the morning.

So I think that’s something, you know, that we want to kind of avoid. So we’re not chasing our tails or making decisions out of out of incorrect data.

Sure. So. So these checklists are designed to help us remove as much human error and mistakes as we can. And so that’s what I want to talk about now. Like, I’m guessing that you have seen a lot of things go wrong and you’ve made mistakes, and that’s how you’ve really developed this complete process of how you should do preproduction and be prepared for anything. So I was wondering if you could share with us maybe one time that something has gone really wrong for you.

Yeah, I mean, there’s a lot of a lot of good examples here. I mean, I think that some of this stuff is, you know, you like I think that one of the best things about touring is, you know, you kind of try some stuff and you say, well, that didn’t really work that well on this today. So we’re going to try to rethink that that strategy for tomorrow. And we’re going to do a better job of executing that plan in the future so you can take the whole rig down and reconfigure the system and kind of come back the next day and and fix any of the mistakes or any of the disadvantages of the system going forward.

But one of one of the actually pretty funny, I was on a tour and the pop star had an iPod, iPod mini for music, and this thing was probably five, six years old, out of date. And I yeah, I guess we have a lot at front of house. You have a lot of computers and there’s a lot of like record computers and playback computers and different computers running different levels of professional gear and prosumer gear and very consumer gear.

And so I get my eighth inch to excel or whatever doohickey we need to have to get this to plug into the console. And I hit play and I had some guests at the show that day. So this is kind of before doors and we’re chatting and back to catering and get get some lunch and and I get a call on the radio. So there’s a problem with the walking music, what’s what’s going on? And I go, OK, well, I’ll walk out there and and see what’s going on.

And it turns out that what I had done is hit repeat on that song instead of the entire playlist. So this Adele song played for like an hour and a half. And meanwhile, pop stars pop star’s Twitter feed is just blowing up with, like, what’s up with Adele Halcomb? Like, the song is on and it’s at a at the Hollywood Bowl. So it’s a pretty high profile show, so to speak. And and I you know, my clunky fingers had just clicked the wrong button and, you know, kind of entertaining guests and stuff.

And I had managed to put this song on repeat, put the song on repeat and and walked away to catering for a duration of time. And and now everybody in management, Don, was furious at me.

And it’s amazing. So long for someone to notice.

I mean, people noticed all over Twitter. It was a whole it was the whole thing. Twitter itself, you know, no one working there did.

Yeah, exactly. Eventually the management took me in the office and dressed me down pretty good about how stupid I could be. And so you get the you know, I think. Well, yeah. And I think that was kind of one of the gets more of a psychological or sociological kind of lessons for me was was you know, they came in and these obviously these managers are under a lot of pressure because it’s a pretty high profile show. And, you know, let me have it yelled at me for 20 minutes and, you know, told me how bad of a system engineer I was and sound guy and everything else.

And I and I just kind of I try to stay calm and I apologize. I’m sorry. It’s my fault it won’t happen again. And I just told them that I think the best thing was just to not to pass the blame, not to blame any of this equipment that we we were using. And it was entirely my fault for not maybe reading the instruction manual on the iPad mini from 2001. And, you know, one of those things where I just kind of brush it off and continue with my day and make sure that mistake doesn’t happen again.

You know, I thought that was a pretty good, kind of laughable, pretty low key kind of thing. But at the time it seemed like the end of the world.

Oh, my God. Yeah. I mean, I was I was laughing with you about it, repeating over and over again until you started talking about the meeting where people are yelling at you, because then I’m thinking about the meetings I’ve had where people have yelled at me and I’m like, oh, God, I feel terrible now. Oh, but yeah, you said and that’s it’s so true. It’s so hard to not just try to make the guilt go away by directing it somewhere else, like, well, that person shouldn’t have given me an iPod.

That’s ridiculous.

Exactly. Yeah. And I think that’s one thing is OK, well, maybe we should kind of rethink how we’re doing this, rethink how we’re playing house music and, you know, use something is a little more professional and less prone to fat finger syndrome. Sure.

So that went on your checklist. If an artist ever hands me an iPod, figure out how to not use the iPhone.

Correct. And, you know, not to mention the thing, the twenty year old battery or whatever, you know, goes dads, you have to have some kind of adapter. And, of course, you know, Apple changes the the type of power connector every couple of years. So you have to, you know, dig around to find the correct adapter. It’s one of those things where a lot of professional gear, but a lot of times it’s a lot of consumer level gear that you’re using on these on these tours.

So so, vich, I’ve been trying to kind of keep my mouth shut and also maybe talk faster than normal because I usually try to get people to send me questions ahead of time. So I’ll post on, you know, LinkedIn and Facebook and say, hey, what questions you want me to ask Rick Wagoner? So many questions came in for you, like way more than I’ve ever had for any other guest. So either, you know, the acoustics product is either like, you know, very exciting or controversial or both.

But but people had a lot of things to ask you. So I want to get into those because I thought, you know, they’re good questions and also just, you know, want to want to satisfy people’s curiosity. So thank you for agreeing to talk about some of these, you know, some of them are kind of maybe too general. And so we’ll see just like what what how can we speak to them? But you’re used to this, so.

Yeah, absolutely. All right. Let’s dove into it. So, Kyle Mariotte, can he explain how they reached the public specs for Carra to please what stimulus for how long downhill with the wind, et cetera? And I put under here another question. OK, I’ll get to that in a second. So, yeah, he wants to know, like, the, I guess, measurement process for getting the things that then get published on the MAPP XT.

But there’s a lot of things on the spec sheet. So I guess I should’ve asked him what he wanted you to focus on. But so I guess you can pick like what do you want to talk about in terms of what goes on the spec sheet and how those numbers are arrived at?

Yeah, you know, there’s a I think one of the kind of things that we pride ourselves on our acoustics is doing a lot of critical listening. So I’ll I’ll kind of I’ll talk about some of the some of the kind of product goals I think about, you know, where do we where do we want a new loudspeaker or product that we’re developing to kind of fit in the in the marketplace or in our ecosystem or our kind of our lineup of of products, whether that be a series like one Kata Carta or the coaxial, things like that.

So I kind of think about what the what the form factor is going to be, what the restrictions are going to be, and then kind of start the design process. And then you want to specify drivers, elements and kind of loudspeaker enclosure sizes and things that are going to work out well for touring. And if that’s if that’s the market you’re going to going for and then. And then and then start development. I mean, again, we’re looking at some anechoic information, some interpretation between the different drivers and poller response and stuff that kind of happens at the R&D level.

But ultimately, I think what we what we like to do as a team is develop a system and kind of have a preliminary product and then, you know, have some listening and really kind of think, does this sound good at different levels? How does it sound coupled with different or proposed kind of a subwoofer system, things like that. So it’s a very, I would say, musical and kind of organic process and, you know, take some notes and think about different kind of features we might want to have, whether that be acoustic or kind of rigging bits or rigging features.

So that’s that’s one of the things. Now, again, Kartu is a little more complex as far as public polished specifications. Again, all these lines, source systems are elements that are coupled sorry. There are elements that are coupled within a larger a larger line source. So they don’t normally do themselves and that they do. We’ve got a couple feet fill presets, underscore F.I. would be in the in the preset library that are optimized to operate independently or by a single enclosure’s.

So when we’re thinking about this published specification, we really need to look in prediction to see how they operate cumulatively with other sources in Aline’s or other elements within a line source. So and then with carto there’s a D pad flex fense that allow you to adjust the horizontal activity. So I just pulled up the the specification sheet. I’ve got it here and I see that the maximum spell is listed at one forty two and it’s noted that this is defined with the car to 70 preset.

So what’s going on is those pen flex fins are in mechanically increasing sensitivity on the in the high frequency domain. So again, that’s, that’s how you get that higher SPL. But there’s going to be a different sensitivity if you go to a wider. So there’s just literally less surface area on the waveguide. If you go to in the case of two, you could go asymmetric 90 or 110 coverage. So I think you have to kind of think about what your design objectives are, think about how these elements are functioning within a line source, and that’s probably the best approach.

Okay, cool. I hope I hope that kind of helps answer the question.

Yeah. I mean, that wasn’t where I thought you were going to go with it, but that’s cool. It’s kind of like you, you almost have the specs ahead of time and you say, OK, what do we need to do mechanically, electronically to make this work out? Now, Kyle did specify he’s curious, like what stimulus was used and how long do you know what he’s asking for there?

I guess some R&D stuff would be, you know, looking at pink noise or looking at some sign sweep’s prescribing, I guess, kind of some fluid dynamics for Sabal for systems are looking at some more complex kind of airflow things in the porting. So, you know, I, I think without getting too kind of in the weeds as far as the R&D side of things, you know, there’s a variety of different different things that go into into place.

And a lot of it’s these days is done in production, you know, using kind of computer models and like I said, kind of fluid, fluid dynamics models to look at how things, especially for low frequencies, are longer wavelengths. React with importing and heat dissipation and thinking about Kresse factor, so to speak. So, you know, again, I think that’s one thing if if, you know, we wanted to get more into it, I could I could discuss that exclusively.

But I think there’s other people in the R&D team that could speak to this much more in depth, so to speak. Right. Well, I’ll just ask a follow up question from Lee Stevens then, who says, especially as they use the same components, Kyra, how have they achieved the extra? SBL So he’s saying that car and to have the same components and yet car has a different spell on the spec sheet. Is that what he’s asking?

Yeah, exactly. So what he’s asking about is this difference from output spel because of the different waveguide use or the flexible waveguide, the pan flex waveguide used in car two. So I think the important kind of term here is mechanical sensitivity. So we’re just increasing the surface area, increasing the radiating surface here and we’re talking about line source systems. And obviously that’s going to affect the horizontal so that the kind of the polar response, the horizontal coverage, like we talk about 70, 90, 110, but also but also allow you to kind of use this system to accomplish a different speed distribution goals, to maintain consistent speed distribution for most designs.

So that’s kind of how the components are the same. And I think one thing that’s kind of commonly known is this upgrade kit allowing you to put take your existing car and upgrade them to car two. OK, so we just changed that waveguide and then we use the same transducers or motor components to get the same results. Just the different waveguide allows us to get a little a little more extra spel if desired. Now, remember that this is in the high frequency domain.

So below 1000 hertz, the eight inch drivers in the car, everything is going to perform the same as far as output SPL. So we’re only mechanically increasing high frequency output as well because it has to do with the waveguide especially.

And since you mentioned waveguide, should we jump down to this kind of difficult question from EHV simit? Let’s see if you have anything to say about this. He says, I’ve asked this before during the release them of the car two and none of the staff on the convention or demo could give me a definitive answer. Can I combine Carra and Karuta in an array using the new presets or a combination of old and new presets? I’d love to use the upper boxes with the narrow dispersion in the lower with the car one which many companies are you have in stock because the boxes are the same except for the upgradable waveguide.

The No, you can’t do it, but I can’t explain to you why answer sounded me like he was just trying to sell the waveguide so would love to hear the technical details. Not everyone has the money to upgrade all their cars, stock and this way maybe with some price delay. So if I’m understanding this correctly, I think he’s kind of asking, can I do this without the upgradable waveguide if there’s some other preset as some other way to accomplish, is that how you’re understanding the question?

Yeah, yeah. Obviously it’s difficult because I love to tell customers and tell people that these, you know, engineers kind of. Yeah, anything’s possible and we’ll customize this and customize that. But remember that if you model an array and sound vision, so if we model legacy car with car two within the same wine source, there’s going to be different coupling and kind of final parameters. That sound vision is taken into account. And the software doesn’t allow you to combine those because there’s honestly different acoustic properties, different presets that are derived that have been updated between Kata and original Carra.

So the results would be difficult to predict in in sound vision. And I think that that’s that’s one of the things where there’s only so many kind of choose your own adventure logic flows that we need to we want to prescribe in sound vision because essentially the within the same line source, these these sources are going to act a little bit differently because of that different waveguide.

All right, I don’t know.

Yeah, but now I think what’s important to realize is that if you’ve got these Carra, let’s say as an outfit and then you’ve got another maybe like a 270 field and you’ve got another, like rehang fill in one’s cartoon ones, Kyra, we’re going to be able to predict those two systems and they’re going to have the same kind of sonic fingerprint that’s the same between the two sources. And that’s an important goal that to us to make sure that legacy car is going to sound similar or there’s going to be they’re going to be kind of backwards compatible when they’re used in independent source, independent sources.

OK, so I think that’s something where if he if he’s in a pinch and there’s a situation exactly like that, I could he could reach out to us and we could probably offer some recommendations. But again, it’s difficult because we don’t have the ability to. You can’t that’s not a logic path. And some and so it’s hard to we’re making a lot of assumptions about interferences in the near field without that information and sound vision. So.

Dave Gamon has a few questions for you, immersive sound is a huge new area of development. Do they see all large format production moving to the Lisa format?

Yeah, I like that question. And I like yeah, I agree. It’s it’s a huge it’s a huge new development. But the short answer is no. I think it depends on the priorities of the production, the artist, the mixer and even the vendor. So that’s kind of the short answer. So again, and I think one thing that’s just kind of go break down all of those again, the production, you know, may not be interested and their priorities may be and other things like video or automation, things like that.

So, you know, maybe that extra complexities or the, you know, changing from the status quo, I mean, a lot of that, that’s kind of a lot of the thing, kind of a lot of it kind of comes down to is just a diversion to change. This is the way we’ve always done it. We’ve made lots of money in the past. We’re not going to change anything in the audio department. And I think everyone in our industry has kind of heard that in various forms over the over their career.

So that’s one of those things. Again, the artist may not see this as something advantageous. So I think that’s one of the things and a lot of these decisions kind of do come down from production of the artist. Now, again, Mixu, I think this is a little more kind of in my lane as far as things I deal with a lot. So I think what’s important here is that many front house mics are developed kind of a resume and on their artistic abilities to manage comparative levels of inputs and then also work with kind of dynamic range and compression frequency response limitations that are suited to dual model mixes or stereo mixes.

So, again, if that’s kind of your niche on your resume, then the ease of use or the the high definition kind of deployment where it’s we’re dealing with more of an immersive mix or a spatial mix where that’s some of these things with carving a hole and the frequency response of different inputs and dealing with managing the dynamics, the limited dynamics of a dual mono system, especially when you’ve got a lot of inputs that arrive at the same band pass and same kind of loudness, you know, and you know, again, those are all kind of carryovers from the studio environment where we’ve got a stereo system.

The status quo is stereo, and we’re going to do different tricks to those mixing busses to get different things to stand out because our limitation is stereo or dual mono. So I, I think that’s that’s one of those things. And then obviously a vendor, that’s one of those things too. You know, again, the knowledge base of the vendor, that’s something that they might not be interested in pursuing. So, again, to assume that everyone’s going to adopt this technology right away, I don’t think that’s that’s a really personal I don’t think that’s an assessment that’s that can be made.

So he also wants to know why Elka’s decided to develop its own measurement platform. So you guys have the P1 meone now. And I guess he’s wondering why you did that instead of just adopting, I guess, any other audio analyzer out there, your smarts that live fire capture ET.

Yeah. So let’s see here. What do I start in the touring domain? I think that one of the things is basically blasting pig noise through for hours is pretty lame. It’s definitely disrespectful to other departments. So that being said is what can we do and what’s known about the system already? And, you know, there’s a lot of vertical integration with the acoustics ecosystem as far as the drive system to, say, P1 going to amplify controllers and then a preset that’s designed specifically for that speaker, the performance of the system, the total balance of the system is already known and prediction.

So there’s a lot of unknowns about the systems system already and a good amount of information kind of known about the atmospheric environment that the systems operate in it. So I think what can be said from there is that we we have so much information available that we just need to kind of build an environment or decision was made to build a piece of software to kind of automate that data collection, look at user evaluation and then kind of match that with the control capabilities already existent in our control into our network manager and network manager.

So that’s kind of where someone is born, is there’s all this data kind of already available and that improves the coherence or the quality of the transfer function. And I mean, again, other FFE analyzers, they’re good and they have a lot of functionality and they’re great. But they are assuming that there’s there’s so many unknowns about how that how the measurement compares to the actual performance of the loudspeaker that’s being tested. That looks interesting. Yeah, it does, because I’m understanding that it was actually the next logical step.

If the system already knows so much about itself and really the only the next missing piece is knowing what the responses of the system at this point where this microphone is and where that microphone is. But otherwise, it already had a lot of that information. So it wasn’t like you were building something from the ground up. You were really just adding. Another piece of the puzzle.

Mm hmm. Yeah, and I think I mean, there’s a couple other things where you can collect data and save magnitude data with minimal noise and more accurate acoustic stimulus. So you basically you’re going to run a bunch of sine sweeps, collect this data from a bunch of different measurement locations, and then you can use post-processing to really predict look at coupling, to look at equalization results with better statistical averages averaging because you can collect a bunch of information about the system at different places and see how the system is going to perform in the front of the room versus the back of the room.

And then, yeah, and then calibrate that system either connected to the amplifiers or do it offline. I know, like for a lot of installations and stuff, come in, collect acoustic data and then go back to the office and actually calibrate the system or do this online as well. You to the amplifiers and you’re pushing the system in real time, pushing settings to the system in real time, and then allowing the user to say, well, let’s see how you say I fired my virtual my virtual playback and I start listening to the system.

Lets see how these different options react in different parts of the coverage area. So I think that’s a good take away figure to optimize using these using them one for sure.

And just to wrap up, we are already getting into it. But Dave asks, why do you sign sweep’s for your measurement stimulus instead of broadband signal like pink noise? But you’ve already mentioned that it’s faster, so it doesn’t bother people as much and it’s a very robust stimulus. Is there anything else you wanted to add to that?

Yes. So this concept of kind of making sure the system, the transfer function is linear, you know, we obviously are going to put this stimulus into the system. It has a discrete asynchronous start time and it excites each frequency along the way. The transfer function in the phase domain and time domain can track that and compare that input to output, just like transfer function, transfer functions do or foot transfer functions. And so this results in a better signal to noise or a more linear response.

So obviously it’s up to the user. And part of that whole, like, validation process I was talking about is making sure that input stimulus isn’t clipping the inputs to the amplifiers or outputs to the amplifiers or you’re measuring microphones and things like that. So those are all important things to check before you begin. So I think that’s a better signal to noise. ISO is kind of the one of the bigger selling points and obviously results in better data collected.

OK, Tom McKean says COCOM why so COCOM is a proprietary cable connection multi pin system. Right. So I guess you want to know why you guys decided to to make your own so partially historical. Also kind of a reliability thing dating back to the Vidocq days, the COCOM. Com Connector was picked over, other ones, other types of connectors. So again, this is the for the era of in late Connector’s, I think back then it would have been up for pretty common or EP eight.

So if you guys have ever had the exciting job to climb some speakers or land and kind of correct any of these dodgy connectors, it’s can be quite frustrating. So I think that’s one of the things is we found that can actually be quite reliable and, you know, somewhat watertight, durable over the years of touring abuse and things like that. And I think anybody who’s especially in the touring world, you kind of get in the habit within Elate Connector’s or email for is putting this back twist on the cable so it doesn’t unplug itself when it goes up in the air.

So because maybe that little pin is a little locking, pin is missing or about to fall off.

Oh, yeah. And parts of the elastic, right.

Oh yeah. Yep, yep. And so if you’re doing a, you know, Canadian run and in January and, you know, negative 20 degrees and all that plastic is, Brid, a lot of loadout that you run the risk of breaking all these connectors. So try to get a solution to our customers. That’s not that’s less fragile in those kind of things.

Chris Prendergast wants to know how the waves culture technology has developed over the decades, specifically for acoustics.

Yeah, so I think there’s a couple things here. This is actually a lot to unpack because this concept’s been the same again, thinking back to some early 90s white papers where, you know, using this stuff, the physics hasn’t changed at all. But our ability to kind of look at more computer modeling, improve the industrialization process and scale that waveguide the technology, we’ve sculpted technology into larger products, into smaller products, evaluate things like harmonic distortion or things like that.

So obviously we’re able to look at that on the vertical domain, provide for the line source systems, kind of enthrallment angles that optimize on the vertical domain, and then also do better to control what’s going on in the in the horizontal domain. So like we talked about with Kartu earlier, is looking at introducing inflects, for example, where you can control not only output sensitivity of these line segments, but also also the activity in the horizontal domain and then obviously making sure that maintains consistent and predictable poller response that’s predictable and sound vision.

And then the sound vision results are translating accurately to that physical deployment. So I think a lot of it comes down to better information and more consistent results because of software development.

Behn Heaven, which says, in his opinion, what separates El acoustics from the rest of the pack.

And so I guess I’ll start one thing I kind of wanted to point out now from our the system calibration workflow from the Live Sound Summit will kind of start with some of the more technical things that I think system engineers can appreciate. So the systems are designed there, musically voiced loud speakers. There’s there’s inherently more low end or the available resources is there. We provide tools for you to adapt low frequency to high frequency. So generally speaking, you’re going to have the ability to have a full range system that’s going to perform musically and that kind of that takes place throughout the entire product range.

So that’s an important thing for us. It’s an important thing for for our users and allows us to be able to say I want to have the same frequency response for the file system as I do for the main system and still be able to use our systems and have the same musical response. Or let’s say you’re doing a stadium show one day and then you’re doing a ballroom show the next day, that frequency response is going to stay the same no matter what what products are using.

So that’s important to us. Another thing I just spoke on is kind of the prediction side of things. So we’ve got a predictable output frequency response and activity is linear at all, operating sensitivities. So again, we’re taking into account the system operating at very, very low output and then going up to its maximum output and still performing the same without breaking apart or port distortion. I’m sure we’ve all heard subs sound like they’re farting or something like that.

So we try to try to minimize that and make our systems as linear as possible. And I think touring that’s I see that a lot. And kind of going back to the in one conversation and looking at smart and things like that is you see a lot of people that calibrate systems at very low spell’s because it’s comfortable. And then the system is operating at very, very high speeds and portions of the systems system can’t keep up with or I should say other band passes of the system or other systems can’t keep up in the entire system, starts to lose its linearity.

And that’s where customers are front of house mixers or people start to get disappointed with with the performance of our systems. So that’s really important to us. I think that’s a thing that separates us from other manufacturers for sure. OK, so a couple other things. Then we talked about frequency response. And I think in my in my capacity right now, one thing I pride myself with and I know our team prides ourself with, is listening to customers, listening to users, getting feedback from them, thinking about new features and kind of quicker ways of doing things or better ways of doing things and quickly and consistently updating and making improvements to our software, which is obviously easy.

Just download new updates and I’ll say on this and many other people that we do these updates about every three months. So if you’ve been out of the software ecosystem, our software ecosystem for three months, it’s best to download whatever’s latest and read the release notes and then also the hardware. You know what? What makes these systems easier to deploy for people? You know, what are features that people liked people don’t like and try to, you know, listen to our our users, listen to our customers and make make changes fit their needs.

So I spent a lot of time listening to a lot of time taking notes and trying to feed that into the into the R&D team. So, OK, OK, cool. Stagecraft says, how do they design their presets?

OK, we talked a little bit about this with the car to question kind of looking at input stimulus, but I think what’s important about this is I’m just going to kind of go through the first part and we talk about this a little bit and we talk about it like in some vision where we have our pink noise as our stimulus and then we’re going to take into account amplifier headroom and then kind of Kresse factor to account for transients. And then we’re going to kind of design backwards or what is the what are the frequency response goals?

What are the the sonic parameters, like acoustic parameters with the loud speaker? And then what are the power supply requirements of the amplifier? What are the you know, what kind of transient information we need to have at all frequencies and specify specify transducers, specify an enclosure that accomplish those things, and then even down to enter element angles, kind of thinking about what what can we do to have a smaller system that has more flexibility with with total curvature, so to speak, within a light source while maintaining good WCT criteria.

So kind of thinking about that and then thinking about trying to keep things simple, trying to keep maybe a handful of presets like we said we use for Khara, there’s carto is like car 70, car 90, car 110. If you’re going to use that as a fill car, fill preset. And those have different parameters, but there’s it’s easy to like load that. And a lot of touring people these days are actually just designing the system in sound vision and then just importing this directly into a network manager.

And that carries all the presets that you’ve specified for the different use cases right in. So you can load that to your network to try to keep it simple. And then obviously a critical listening. So take this out. Have a listen. I have the R&D team and the design team kind of make adjustments to The Presets, obviously try to stay within a latency quota to account for other kind of fiber filters and things like that that are going on to maintain good poller response and then going back and kind of thinking about, well, you know, what can we do to improve this and then come out with the best product, best foot forward as far as The Presets and then after release, then kind of getting feedback and if there’s any kind of changes or improvements.

And I mean, this kind of happens as technology improves and predictive and measurement capabilities improve and try to try to make things that are going to be better and release new presets not too frequently. But if there’s a thing that we can make it make improvements from a software push, then we’ll we’ll explore that.

So be Meiners has a question for you and we’ll see if you have anything to say about this, because it’s I feel like we may need some more information. But he says how to achieve tonal balance with smaller liner, a six to nine caras per side with three elements at one AMP channel. So smaller system and kind of the maximum number of elements per AMP channel, it sounds like. Do you want to say anything about how you tonal balance yet now?

Again, you’re somewhat limited with three elements and a line source, especially in this case, Kyra, it’s a pretty you’re kind of looking at a point source behavior, especially in the low frequency domain. There’s not a lot of activity control in that example. So what I would encourage somebody like this to do is to take advantage of in sound vision. If you go to Target Toolbox, there’s a a second band pass view that you can look at any kind of I like to recommend a low frequency band pass so then you can look at frequency response across the audience from one to ten K and at the same time look at distribution of frequency response at a lower range.

So like seventy to like two hundred fifty hertz. And again, I find myself designing systems like this for small deployments and it’s important to think, to look at those kind of things and think, you know, what can I do to make sure that high frequency stays consistent or predictable with low frequency? I would definitely recommend that. And I guess kind of going back to the question about what what sets our products apart from others is we want to look and design the best mechanical solution before we go into the world of adding electronic coloration to improve a problem that was could be fixed with a mechanical solution that allows us to look at that stuff in sound vision.

I think that second band is a super useful tool. So, OK, so Christian Frederick has a question. I know where he’s getting this from. So there’s a lot of great training videos on YouTube now from acoustics. And I remember and one of them, we learn that with our acoustics gain shadings big. No, no. And yet you can combine sometimes different boxes in the same array. And so Christian says if smaller boxes are used for down at the bottom of the array, won’t that produce the same problem as gain shading?

Hmm. Yes. So that’s that’s kind of taken into account in the R&D process where especially in the high frequency domain. We have a lot of interferences between these different wave guides, so what we want to do is design a preset that has a constant latency. And when you load, let’s say, for the case of Q1 to Q2, when you load that K2 preset, that preset has the same phase response as the K one preset out of the box.

Now, in the case of, let’s say, if you’re going to do car to car below Kawan or something like that, you need to make sure you load that car down one preset to to to make sure that that those interferences are predictable and it’s not going to cause any kind of steering or anomalies in the wavefront. So we’re and I think what’s important about this is we want to encourage the use of mixed arrays or at least in my designs, my designs and kind of what I what I find flea’s for touring and rental systems is essentially remember that as we get closer to the front of the room we’re getting there’s the proximity to the system is increasing.

So obviously in the high frequency domain, the system is going to have higher sensitivity or higher output at that position in the front. So naturally, what we can do is use a box that has less output capacity. So, again, that speaks to the idea of going from one that has a higher output to reduce the output of the system by just mechanically switching to a less powerful loudspeaker. That accomplishes the same thing that would I think people have would have a tendency to use gainsaying against shading to accomplish.

Now, there’s kind of a parallel conversation with this is what we want to do is when you get close to proximity to a system, a lot of times we don’t have a lot of control over ultralow frequencies, depending on the geometry of the line source. But in the high frequency domain, we can use FLIR circuiting or sorry for attenuation. That’s constant latency is accounted for in the preset latency to reduce Aspell output in the high frequency domain. So we want to be sure we’re using that.

And if you’re calculating, call it auto FFR. It will take into account array, geometry, audience geometry and atmospherics. It will prescribe a set of fiber filters to normalize or reduce these kind of spots in the coverage area that are caused by high frequency building up because of the mechanics of the line source.

OK, so Dan Barrett says, how many toddlers does he think he can take in a fight?

Well, you know, like I said, growing up in the Midwest, I played hockey as a kid. And that was one thing I kind of learned is a lot of those smaller guys can run right around you. And so probably not very many. I’m a pretty big guy and I feel like they’d have a pretty massive advantage over me. So not very many.

So Tiago FIRREA for you, Artiaga. So Tiago, in one of the person stinting questions about the Katou in the car in the K3 and Vic and I were chatting before we started rolling today and we’re not going to cover those questions because those are actually answered in a product release that’s coming out tomorrow. So by the time this interview comes out, that program release will already be up. So Tiago and the other person have the question about the K3. Check out the acoustics website, and you should be able to find the answer to your question.

Christopher Patrick DPO Viks had quite the career being a system engineer for such notable mixers as Scovel and Pooch. If it’s in within reason to venture outside of the brown box realm, I’d be curious to hear his opinions on some other risks he’s deployed. I’d say most curious was Onya as that stands out above others, considering the flexibility it offers in some terms of DSP process control. And I’ll just point out that I think if people are interested, if I’m remembering correctly, you can find a YouTube video of Robert Psychoville talking about the system and I’m guessing you were involved with this.

Am I saying that correctly?

There’s probably there’s probably Robert talking about it and me running around frantically, you know, calibrating the system hours before sound check or something. So there’s there’s probably some hilarious footage of me running around an arena with a bunch of microphones and. Yeah, exactly. But to his question, I think I think one of the more fundamental kind of things that I’ve learned through these processes of dealing with different manufacturers systems is to reach out to the manufacturer and immerse yourself in their recommended guidelines and ask them the hard questions as what do you think I should do?

Like what manufacturer should I do to optimize these systems or to deal with these kind of concerns I have or deployment questions.

They want you to be successful.

Exactly. And they’re nice people and they’re going to you’re going to take time. You need to make sure you allow time to, you know, plan and bounce designs off of them and bounce ideas and not to be defensive, not to be, you know, kind of disarm yourself as far as put your learning cap on when you’re when you’re around these people to absorb as much information. And I think if you kind of use their. Imitations, you’ll get the best results and you know, you’re talking about Onya and talking about systems I’ve used with Pooch, I think that was the same kind of thing where there was a lot of new technology that we were testing out for the first time.

And they had recommendations. And I tried to be patient and use the systems exactly how they recommend.

OK, Nicodemus says stereo versus mono. If the stereo image is mainly enjoyed by only a few people, of the many in a live event, could a single wide dispersion line or a provide more uniform coverage?

Yeah, so I think it’s a great question. I think I guess the technical jargon would be, are these correlated or dB correlated input inputs to the system? So what are we doing? Are we looking at like feeding like a paging system or it’s a mono and is it a stereo send or is it something more complex than that? Like an immersive system or LCR is a topic of conversation often. So I think that, yes, that’s a huge problem with Domoto.

It’s a huge problem with stereo that it’s not optimized for the populace of the audience. And so we need to think about that in deployment. I think, you know, I just kind of say LCR, for example, it’s important to kind of think about that kind of thing, to have as much overlap between all three of these these sources. So as many people as possible are experiencing the localization of how you have things panned in that’s in that field.

Now, I think one of the great features of immersive mixing or Lisa systems is that it accomplishes that a lot easier than having to deal on a bunch of different bustline and things like that. There’s a bunch of different Netco uses the term this kind of single wide dispersion line source. So what we’re doing when we’re deploying these systems is we’re using a variety of usually like five five line sources or seven sources or something to provide that consistent coverage and total balance on the horizontal domain.

And then all of those sources are essentially overlapping coverage. So you can place an object in that environment and you can move it and it’s not going to change tonal that balance or or level as you move it through the sound field. Cool. So I think that that’s that speaks to Elisa, but I think that it’s important to think about those kind of things. Also important to think about temporal localization. When you’re thinking about filesystems, I mean, just remember that there’s always a function of delay and level where your brain is going to localize the direction of what sources heard first.

OK, so it’s complicated thing even for dual mono and LCR systems to think about. You know what that what how that’s how the bus comes into the system. Yeah.

Do you have any unique or interesting pieces in your work bag that you could tell us about something that you think other people don’t have or don’t know about?

I mean, I think most touring people kind of know about this, but it’s true. Paul Rangefinder, that’s kind of a standard thing. I think that, you know, always the question comes up in a lot of our trainings and and obviously for tours and stuff when that resumes is, you know, how do I measure the room? How do I gather room dimensions and create a quick model? So I think a true POS is a good thing, especially if you you know, you already have a room model.

You just want to verify its accuracy. You know, it’s easy enough to do that. In addition, carry a small tripod to put that true pulse on. So I think those are all kind of things that are pretty small and pretty easy to fit into a backpack.

The the one where the like the camera. And so it has a little screens you can like in the daylight. You can see what you’re aiming at.

That’s like a like I think the like a series has that this is more of a range finder kind of hand-held thing. And see Laser Technology Incorporated is the company that builds it and they say optical laser. It’s not a red dot laser. So it works through most kind of fog conditions. And I think as it goes up to about three hundred meters, so it works well for dark arenas to stadiums, which when it’s the bright sun out and things like that.

So other things in the work bag that I think are are very acoustic centric. I carry a P one with me. The P one allows me to use in one to calibrate carry a couple of measurement mikes the right now you can plug for for measurement mikes into the front panel like Prix’s of the P1. But I usually carry a couple spares in case one gets attacked by a by a chair, Carter a forklift or something.

So what makes you have.

That’s, that’s right. Now I simcock seventy one fifties. They’re just, they’re affordable, they’re pretty accurate and again the quality of these microphones. But when we’re compiling these information, this information, we’re relying on a variety of different measurement positions to produce our average. So the more average results you have of the system, if one mic has slightly different frequency response from another within reason, because we have so much average and information to the statistic, information is better.

So. That’s the thing, and then the other thing is a little spell calibrated to make sure those mikes are working properly and they’re all running the same sensitivity. So we don’t have bias towards one data set in the data collection.

Vic, is there a book that you could share with us that’s been really helpful to you?

Oh, yeah, those are some interesting, interesting questions. I guess academically, I think one of the things that I kind of kind of changed my opinion years ago about designing these systems and thinking about optimization is it’s called The Complete Guide to High End Audio. And this is Robert Harly. And I think the focus on this is more kind of high fi systems. But I think that the important takeaway from high fi systems is you’re usually accomplishing more with less.

So there’s less in the signal flow. You’re using really, really high quality components. And that way we don’t have to rely on a bunch of widgets to improve the frequency response or improve the desired performance of the system, because we’ve picked portions of the system or segments of the drive system or signal flow with the best possible pieces and the least amount of coloration or face shift or attenuation or headroom issues and things like that. So I think that’s an important mindset.

And, you know, people you know, people think I think a lot of this stuff kind of gets forgotten about in commercial audio and tours and stuff. And I think that’s really, really important because you’re going to get the best results out of the system and you aren’t going to have to do a lot of upstream signal manipulation to get the results you want. Second book, I thought it was kind of a good one to put on here is called The Idea Factory, and it’s it’s by John Gaertner.

And it’s about Bell Labs in the early 20th century, kind of through the 70s and 80s when Ma Bell was broken apart. And this Bell Labs, they kind of wrote the book on a lot of what we deal with in audio networking and kind of our references as far as how decibels work and how we’ve defined these kind of studio references over the years that we’ve adopted into the sound reinforcement field. And I think it kind of puts I like to kind of think of a lot of the problems that we think are unique to sound reinforcement.

The phone company dealt with the same problems years ago, decades ago. So I think it’s a good kind of humbling story of reading, reading through and kind of an understanding where the concepts kind of came from. Another book that I kind of want to just bring up that I thought was really, really cool is failure is not an option. Kind of goes back to my space nerd things. And this is by Gene Krantz, and he was the NASA flight director during Mercury, Gemini and Apollo.

And he talks a lot in this book about building checklists and building redundancy systems into aerospace. No, no go, no go checklists, things like that. And I think that’s the mentality that we want to encourage and adopt for tourist applications. So that’s a good one is also, if you like, physics and aerospace stuff, it’s a good read, not to mention some crazy failure scenarios where they have to kind of move quick and make some decisions that could potentially equate to the life and death of a crew duct tape involved.

So, yeah, I think so. Yeah.

Yeah. Do you listen to any podcast?

I do, I, I do listen to a lot of pop to know which ones you have to listen to every time they come out.

Oh man. I got, I got a couple for you so I’m going to leave the political podcast aside for this discussion. But one of the ones that brings me great joy is a podcast called Switched On Pop. And what these guys do is they just dissect pop music or take a song or a genre and kind of unpack it and talk about why pop and what makes it what makes it interesting to listen to and kind of the evolution of the story and what it means as far as songwriting and and and so on from there.

So that’s a good one. And I also think that for a lot of this stuff is having a good understanding of musical instrumentation. And I think that’s a good place to kind of start thinking about arrangements and think about how that translates to how songs are recorded and how the public or the masses kind of perceives how a pop song should sound and thus how a system should be deployed for sound reinforcement.

Well, Vic, where’s the best place for people to follow your work?

I think the best place these days, you can definitely acoustics on our website, you can go on there and go to contact and find a picture of me and my email and shoot me an email and my phone numbers on there as well. I think you give me a call day or night and we. Yeah, oh, any time now I never sleep. But no, we try to I try to keep try to keep our our customers in any kind of interesting projects that we’re working on.

We definitely post on our social media in L.A., the best sound on Instagram and everything like that. So try to keep a steady flow of tushy in the pandemic times, positive and uplifting things kind of happening on a daily basis.

Well, I’m glad you said about people contacting you because we had so many kind of listener questions today that I think if, you know, if Vick didn’t answer the question the way you expected him to or there’s more information that you want or I didn’t ask it the way you wanted it, so you should reach out to him and then, you know, and then email me and let me know what he said, because I’d be interested to know as well, because I realized as soon as we get into the interview, this always happens.

I realize, like I think I know what this person wanted to know, but I’m not totally sure. And so I don’t really know if I’m steering the conversation in the right direction. So reach out to Vick. He’s a super nice guy and he has contacts on the website. So Vick Wagner, thank you so much for joining me on Sound Design Live.

Oh, it’s good to chat. I loved it. So glad to get the information out there and have this discussion with everybody.

The Public Library of Loudspeaker Measurements

By Nathan Lively

Imagine a library of loudspeaker measurements where you could look up the frequency, phase, and impulse response of any speaker in the world.

What questions could you answer with it?

  1. Am I doing it right? Have you ever measured a speaker for the first time and realized you have no idea what you’re looking at? I have!
  2. Are my speakers phase compatible? I have to set up a system with RCF mains and QSC front-fills tomorrow. Will they play well together?
  3. Is my speaker working correctly? Do you have a maintenance routine of measuring your speakers every six months? What do you compare them to?

For the last few years I’ve been building my own little library of loudspeaker measurements to help me in my work. Maybe you’ve been doing the same. What if we joined forces to create something even better?

Transcript

This transcript was created automatically. Please let me know if you discover any errors.

A panel discussion hosted by Nathan Lively on the topic of the public library of loudspeaker measurements, I just want to mention that Nathan is the host of Sound Design Live podcast. It has surpassed six hundred ninety two thousand downloads over nine years. So these are really impressive numbers, Nathan. And yeah, we’ve we’ve sort of had your voice in our ears for lots and lots of hours up until now. And we are always willing and ready for more. So please introduce your panelists and take it away.

So this is the public library of loudspeaker measurements. What does that mean? I hope that will become apparent as we get into this. OK, so I’m Nathan, recovering sound engineer, teacher, hot chocolate enthusiast, things like that, and I’m joined by Ian Robertson, who has been over 40 years working in the professional audio industry as a touring mix, engineer system, tech, designing and optimizing sound systems and as a technical support specialist and trainer. In addition to leading seminars and educational events in the application of many of the audio product lines in a smart instructor since nineteen eighty nine become a registered smart instructor, a registered smart user since nineteen eighty nine became a registered smart instructor in twenty seventeen.

We also have Arthur Skudra. Arthur is an audio visual consultant and smart instructor with the focus on acoustics, dB programing and sound system design and commissioning. He has over 30 years experience in designing technical media systems, including acoustics, sound lighting and video systems for very large auditoriums, theaters, stadiums, contemporary churches throughout North America. And Cesar Lamschtein has twenty five plus years of experience and audio in Latin America. USA and Europe is deeply involved in the audio engineering society and today is the vice president of the US for Latin American region and all around her.

He has logged flight time experience in studio music production, live sound audio production, teaching systems and optimization, audio consulting design, installed systems, recording studio design and monitoring calibration, as well as technical document writing and translation in English, Spanish, French, Portuguese. He’s currently a formal student in the field of forensic audio. What a panel of these introductions. OK. So that question’s link went away because I hid this, but I’ll just remind you guys that as I’m going through this, if you have any questions, please go ahead and put that in the questions link.

And if Alice sees you posting questions in the chat, he’ll either remind you of the questions link or he’ll copy and paste it for you onto that page. So how many times have you seen posts like this? My guess is that you’ve seen at least one or two of them, I know I see at least one of them every day when I get online and sometimes it’s me posting stuff like that. Right. And I think they are pretty much saying the same thing, which is am I doing it right?

Is this correct? What does this mean? And I’ll share with you guys that I have the same question a lot of times when I go out into the field because I’m a freelancer, so I’m often working on a different sound system every day, different equipment. And sometimes I’m even walking in cold like I have never touched a piece of equipment before in my life. And while that is the fun part of being a sound engineer, we’re always getting to work with new stuff and deal with new challenges.

It’s also a little bit stressful because I’m expected to be the expert on this equipment that maybe I’ve never touched before. And while everything is not totally new, consoles typically work the same way. Speakers typically work the same way in terms of like doing this job. There are many features and things about them that are different. So how do I do this magic trick where I show up and do this job and pretend to be the expert and really maximize a situation that makes the client happy?

And I get paid and the show goes well and stuff like that. OK, well, that’s going to be talking about today, and I want to draw your attention before I move away from the slide, let me turn this on to a laser. I want to draw your attention to this guy here. It says, hi, please. Does anyone have smart traces for a dB sub? Just need something to compare my measurement to. So I’m not going to say anything about that yet.

Just want to draw your attention to that. So here’s a show that I worked on back in October, October 30th, I believe, went down to Texas for this political rally. At the time it was Senator Kamala Harris. And this was a challenging show because it was initially supposed to be inside and they were bringing in a minimal amount of equipment. It was going to be a small room. At the last minute. They decided they wanted to be a driving event.

People are going to drive in and just like stand around their cars. And they still had the same amount of equipment because the people who are bringing it had already left pretty much, and they didn’t have anything else they could they could bring to us. So we just had this little small group of speakers here, and then we had some fill speakers that you can’t see. And the image here. And that’s all we had. And on top of that, I had never worked with these particular speakers before.

Yes, some cases in my life. But these particular model of our No. So what happens when I get into the field and I take my first measurement and I look at it and I’m like, wait, what? What is this am I doing this right? What does any of this even mean? So. I might call up in and I’ll stay in, does this look correct or am I posted online? And that’s why I think why we see all those posts, because out of context, this doesn’t mean anything.

Right? It’s just a bunch of data. It’s just a bunch of lines on the screen. And so I start having questions, I’m like, why is there this series of dips and peaks and dips? What is the coherence look like this? Does that have anything to do with the fact that I seem to be locked on to the second peak instead of the first peak? What’s going on there? Well, I have a couple of other measurements in this orange, and I’m actually locked on to the first peak.

OK, that makes more sense to me. Now, the series of peaks and dips has changed. So now I have something to compare it to and this is already a lot better. But I still would love it if I could have some sort of picture of what this is supposed to look like before I get started. And this for me is the big difference between beginners and intermediates who are using the audio analyzers that beginners have a lot of questions of absolutes.

Right? Is this good? Is this good or bad? Is this right or wrong? And intermediates are a lot more interested in questions of comparison. How does this compare to this or that? Is it louder or quieter? How does the ripple compare? How does the frequency response compare the phase response, those kinds of questions? But how could I have done that if I just showed up in the field and this is all I had at that point, it’s kind of too late.

Right? And I’m sort of like calling in on the phone to find out what’s going on. So if you guys well, actually, let’s see a show of hands, how many of you are you can type into the chat, how many of you have ever taken a workshop with Bob McCarthy or Maryland and Dean? And into Hans. OK, cool, you guys are using the hands feature, I love it. And you can also type into the chat if you want.

Great. OK, so a few of you know what I’m talking about, if you’ve taken a workshop with either of those people or anybody else, lots of people talk about this, then you know that one of the ways that teachers talk about solving this problem is by getting up close and personal with the speaker before the room and air starts interacting with it. So what I could have should have done in the field was get up really close to the speaker with a long microphone stand or before the speaker goes up into the air, even better get up close to it.

And I think Bob McCarthy calls us getting to know the speaker. And I think we’re inventing calls this the Polaroid, something like that. The point is, if you don’t know what the response of something looks like before you measure it in the far field, you should probably compare it up close and personal. So you really see what that what it looks like before all the problems start happening. Right. Here’s the problem with that solution, I never do it, I don’t think I’ve ever done in my life, and my guess is that if you are sort of nodding your head along with me right now, then maybe you are familiar with this problem.

You get into the field and all of a sudden there’s no time. And one hundred things are going wrong and you have one hundred other challenges and fires to put out. Right. So all of a sudden things on your list start getting crossed off. I don’t have time for this. I don’t have time for that on time for this. And I don’t think I’ve ever really taken the time to do this, getting to know the speaker step, which is so important because otherwise I open this and I have no idea what’s going on.

OK, so I have found a small workaround, which is that during part of my preproduction work, I will open up the list of hardware that I have for the show tomorrow and I’ll say, OK, I’ve never worked with this speaker before. So then I go and I Google it and I find the speaker and I download the glow file. So once I have that glow file, then I can open the glow viewer, which is free, and I grab that file and I open it up and it looks something like this.

Right. But for now, just to keep it simple, I’m just interested in one speaker and then I probably want to sometimes these GELO files come with some kind of processing preset. So then I might pick something that I expect to use tomorrow maybe. This guy here and then I hit predict and I have some parameters to pick here. This is not really a workshop on using the gloves. I just want to get to our goal here, which is showing you kind of why we are building this new project.

So here you can see I have magnitude and I have phase, OK? And it’s done this production for me. And now I can export this to a table and then I can open it up in my audio analyzer. And that’s what I’ve done here. And while these don’t look exactly the same, now, I can start having a conversation and then I can look at this together and we can say, this is interesting. Like, why is this slightly different here?

And now we can talk about, OK, it’s not supposed to have this series of peaks and dips here. So let’s talk about why that’s happening and then why does this go up like that? OK. And so if the speaker is supposed to look like this with no room and when you are on access directly in front of it, then what is all of this stuff happening and what does that say about my choices for doing my alignment and doing my system tuning?

So I just wrote out the steps here in case you guys are interested and you’ve never done this before, you can come back and look at those later. So this is super helpful, right? Just having some sort of comparison. But for me, that’s not quite good enough. I’d also like to just prepare myself to actually see, are these speakers compatible? Why? Because as you guys saw in the previous slide, like I have speakers from two different manufacturers here, they’re not necessarily guaranteed to be compatible.

So how am I going to do that? Well, I loaded one of them into my audio analyzer, so maybe I can load the front fill as well. I’m sorry. Not necessarily the front fill. Just the speaker here in my kitchen. So let’s go ahead and do that, so I will go here and open up the giallo file for the captain, which I just downloaded the other day. So this is the most up to date version and it predict.

Now, this is kind of weird, right? Let’s just turn off the magnitude for a second. Just look at the thay’s. Now, I don’t know about you guys, but this is not like any kind of face to face I’ve ever seen before. So it doesn’t seem like it’s going to be that helpful for me. So what do I do now if this doesn’t help me, then what do I do? So I might call in or I might call Arthur and say, hey, do you guys have a vision of a kitchen?

Can you send it to me? And then I might have it. Luckily, I actually have it already. So let me show you what I would do once I had all of those as I might load them into this other audio analyzer called cross-line if you’ve never seen it before. No big deal. Just another audio analyzer. We’re just looking at a magnitude graph here. And I’ve got my main and speaker here in red and blue and then my sub, I’m sorry, and red and green and then my subin blue.

And what I can do now is look at the sum between all of them. And so I turn on the stump here and I see this is kind of weird, right? I’ve got summation here, but then I’ve got cancelation here and then this is weird through here. And I would sort of expect to see summation all the way through here, but I’m not quite getting it and I wonder why that is. So I can what I can mute myself here.

And let’s just take a look at the main and fill speaker here. And now I’m going to flip this graph over and just look at the face by itself. And when I do that, without even knowing anything, I can just see that these lines are not on top of each other. OK, and I think this is relevant because the peaks are on top of each other, if we look at the impulse response up here. The peaks of these impulse responses are lined up, as best as I can tell.

And so I can assume that when I do my measurements tomorrow in any other audio analyzer like this one, that. That peak is going to line up when I said that, the locator and so this might be the alignment that I get and so I can spend some time here now doing a little bit of work, preparing for tomorrow so that once I get in the field, all this stuff just goes a lot more easy. So maybe I have a preparation for what this alignment is going to be like.

Do I need some delay? Do I need a polarity inversion? Do I need something even fancier or do I need an all pass filter, some I can practice with the cue. And even if everything changes tomorrow, even if speaker positions change and even potentially speaker models, I have found that just doing this kind of a little bit of preparation beforehand makes everything go so much better tomorrow. Even with a few years of experience that I have now, getting into the field and looking at something like this is tough for me.

I want to be ready. I want to either have a picture in my mind or I want to have something to compare it to, to say what’s going to happen. OK, so I hope I have sort of like shown for you how important this is to to do this kind of work and to be prepared, because I want to know, number one, what am I looking at? And number two, are these things even compatible? Right.

So why am I talking about this? It seems that I’m leaving some holes in the story. Right. And and the holes that I feel like I’m trying to expose are where do you get this data? How do you trust it? How do you get it into your audio analyzer so that you’re ready for your event? And that is the solution that I want to present to you today. It’s this new project that I’ve been working on with my colleagues who are here presenting with me today.

It’s called Facebook. You can access it at Trece Dash book dot org. And I’ll put that into the chat for you in just a minute. I want to show you how Facebook could have helped with this problem that I’ve been going through here today. So I’m going to grab this link and I’ll put that into the chat. Because what I could have done as I could have opened Facebook and I’m going to come back to this index page in a second, but I just want to wrap up this little case study.

I could go to the search page, I could say, show me all of the QST speakers, because we don’t have many versions of every model yet, but we do have several QIC models in here already. And so now I might open up that, Katan. And not now, not only can I take a quick preview here of the magnitude and phase and some of our records even have impulse responses as well, but I can also see some things about the speaker.

How was it measured here and exactly what were the conditions that it was measured under? Because the idea here is that Alice should be able to measure this exact same speaker at home, at his warehouse, wherever, and get very similar results. And that’s actually what we’re hoping. We’re hoping that everyone here today will sign up for Facebook and do some measurements of their own speakers, because right now we only have one QST 10. But imagine if we had 10 or 20 or 30 QST Katende measurements here, and then we could look at them all in aggregate.

And then we start to have some statistical significance where we say, OK, this is really what a Katan is like. And now we all know because we can all see it because we’ve all tried it under the same conditions. OK, but practically for this case study, what you would want to do then is just download the native file because you potentially are a smart user. And so you look down here and you says, oh, the analyzer used here was smart, great.

So I can just download the native file. Otherwise you’re going to download the CSV file. Most audio analyzers can import XP or text file these days. And so that is sort of the common interchange format that we’re working with at the moment. And then that could be really helpful because then I could do all of this work, this pre production work that I showed you here and here and cross light, because I have data that I can rely on.

And now I get into the field tomorrow and I have something to compare it to and I’m ready to go. OK, so before I hand it over to Ian Robertson, the last thing I want to do is just go back to the index page here and read to you this message here, because we put it on the index page and it’s always visible there because we feel like it’s very important. OK, so if you are looking for real world reference data that you can import into your audio analyzer, you are in the right place.

This is an independent, public, nonprofit community that promotes the open exchange of loudspeaker system reference data measured by audio professionals for audio professionals together and a team effort. We can build and expand this library into a valuable source to benefit you today as well as future generations. So that’s what I have for you today. This is what we’ve been working on for the last few months. I’m excited for everybody to get involved and to start sharing your data, so I hope you’ll sign up today.

And have there been any questions so far that we need to answer?

No, not so far. So you can go ahead and introduce your panelists or continue with your presentation.

OK, so, Ian, do you want to take over the screen share or do you want me to just keep sharing? I don’t know. Maybe you want to drive.

One of the things I just kind of want to reiterate a little bit what Nathan said earlier is that a lot of this is knowing that it’s possible. One of the things that I do a fair bit of is, is training for digital consoles. And and usually what I find is, is that it’s great you start telling somebody about how to patch the console and you go through it and then you start diving into all the really detailed, intricate stuff. And you can see at a certain point, people start to get a little antsy, like, wow, there’s a lot of information here, and they start to get worried that they have to retain it.

But it’s not so much about retaining it. It’s about knowing what’s possible and knowing where to go to find the answer when you have the question right. So don’t stress about, you know, getting all the details because it’s not necessarily about that. It’s just about knowing what the possibilities are on one hand. And the other thing that Nathan mentioned, he asked for a show of hands of who took who’s taking sessions by Merrilyn or or Bob McCarthy or Madou or whatever.

A lot of us as as instructors, we cover a lot of the same material. I’ll cover some material. Arthur covers some material. But I find that for myself, when I take a class from one person or take a class from another person, it’s usually that slightly different perspective or a slightly different slant that somebody has on a particular problem or issue or whatever. And all of a sudden the light bulb goes on. It becomes clear because that person what how that person expresses it, it makes a lot of sense to me, whereas the way the other person expressed it, I might have found it more complicated.

So I’d encourage you to gather as much from all the different people that you can and, you know, carry on from there. So. One of my kind of base kind of philosophies through audio is trying to minimize the amount of variables that are at hand in any given situation. If you have one variable, there’s only one answer if you have four variables. Well, now there’s 16 different answers, 16 different places that it might be wrong. And so like an exponential growth.

So I think the trace book removes one very important variable, and that is that we have, like Nathan mentioned, we have data that comes from all these JLL files, or you can just go and you can literally just look at the spec sheet of a loudspeaker. But in in many cases, the spec sheet is either overly polished, it’s a marketing curve as opposed to a engineer’s curve, or it might be missing some data like there may not be any phase data.

Like the previous example that Nathan showed, so the one variable that I think Facebook eliminates in this whole equation is the fact that the measurements that are posted on the Facebook are done by people who are measuring speakers directly. With for the most part, I think a lot of people are going to be using smart, so the person emerges is a loud speaker and smart, I can do the same measurement. And we’ve worked on a very defined procedure for gaining a high quality measurement.

Measurements here aren’t going to be like an anechoic measurement that a manufacturer would do, which incidentally, is how they do the goldfarb’s or should do the digital files. So it’s contextual. The data and phrasebook is contextual. It it it relates directly to the measurement that I’m going to go out and make in the field, which I think is very important. So this is the first measurement that I did for a tuning session about two or three years ago.

And the question is, while this is an interesting phase response and does the speaker really look like this? Does it really have six phase wraps and sixty three hertz? Go ahead, Nathan. So. It’s a make or sound, Winry. So based on previous experience, because I’ve measured a few lying rigs, I know this is wrong, but if I if I’d never seen this, you know, is this real? Is it crazy? So go ahead ahead there.

So I could go to traceback, grab the measurement from Trace Facebook of the line and I can see what I should expect for a phase response. I should get about one hundred and eighty degrees of facelift down at sixty two hertz. Otherwise it should be relatively flat. So now we have to dig deeper. So why is my measurement so screwy? So what ended up happening is I discovered that there was a multiband compressor inserted on the output console outside of that.

That’s amazing. Is this is that what really happened? Yes.

Yeah. That is a commonly used multiband compressor and it was inserted on the main base of the output of the console. And that is the phase response of of that compressor, because for every band pass in the compressor, there’s a crossover and the crossover was actually in the signal doing. So anyway, this is the FDA’s response of that that particular plug in that was engaged on the console and just there’s a little note there that says magnitude inverted, because whenever I’m measuring a processor or a console, I always set my magnitude to invert so you can jump ahead to the next one there.

And now we can see the correlation. The cause and effect that we can see, the magnitude, its debate on the magnitude trace of the console because it’s inverted, but you can see the low frequency boost that we’re getting and you can also see all the phase groups that are coming from my measurement and they’re due to the process and what’s happening in the console. So just to we got rid of the processing in the console so you can you can hit the next one there.

And so just to verify again, trust but verify, we want to verify that once we got rid of that plug in, that we indeed didn’t have any more surprises up our sleeve, you know, from from the from the upstream signal chain. Right. So and then if you jump to the next one, this is the last result. I think this is the end result of what the wiring was after a couple of BQ changes. But you can see the phase response is basically virtually identical to the phase response that was previously submitted on the Facebook data.

So, you know, like I say, it correlates. It’s it’s it’s measurements done by users and shared. And you can hit the next one there to Nathan Lively this one. So here’s another example. And this is the end for the examples, because there is no data Facebook for this particular loudspeaker. So if I were in the field and I were to flip on my measurement and get my timing and we’ve got two and a half phaser apps in this loudspeaker, I don’t know.

Is that correct or is it not correct? Is there something else at play here or not? Well, the bottom line is, I’m not sure. I can’t put my hand on my heart 100 percent confidence and say this is the accurate. This is the right. This is the correct response with this loudspeaker. Also, there’s some there’s some wiggling up in the very, very top and there that seem a little bit extreme to me, but I’m not sure if that’s correct or not.

So without other contextual data to compare to, you know, I’m kind of I’m kind of running blind on this. So that’s to me, that’s the most fundamental purpose of of the existence of Facebook. And I’m quite excited about the project as a whole. There’s several moderators that are that are engaged myself and this to five or six of us who are moderators on the site. So when people are submitting data to the site, first of all, it takes two of two moderators to actually prove a record, which I think is a good thing.

And if you’re right, it’s fine to be aligned with a manufacturer. I’m aligned with a couple. But the other thing that’s interesting on the site is that if I submit data, I’m not allowed to moderate it. And there has to be moderators who are not aligned with that manufacturer who actually approve that data. So there’s some some really good safeguards in there. So I just want to talk a little bit about the moderator, the role of the moderator, first of all, the moderators to to review the data and take a look at it.

And there may be some some interesting things in the data that we identify as a problem in the measurement. And that’s part of our job as moderators to look at the measurements and say, OK, the problem here and this is why and to make sure that the data conforms to the measurement procedure, which is on the upload page, you can download it directly off the upload page. But the other part of moderation is that we’re a resource for people who are submitting data.

And one of the things that I think Facebook is hopefully going to. One of the end results or one of the byproducts of this Facebook is I think it potentially can be a great community and an educational platform in and of itself. So by uploading something, don’t be concerned. If you upload something and it’s not perfect and you get comment on it or it doesn’t get approved. It’s an opportunity to revise your process and get a better measurement. So hopefully the end result.

One of the byproducts and I’m hoping for with Facebook is that we end up with a whole bunch of people out there who are improving their measuring skills. Is also another happy sideline, happy couple.

So can I can I just interrupt you for a second? Because I wanted to point out that I’ve learned so much just by doing this. Like I’ve submitted things that have not been accepted because the microphone was too close, our ripple was too high or something. And then I went back and I looked at it and I did it. And so as you and I were talking about the other day and we were kind of recommending to people that you start out by measuring something that you have at home.

That way, if something goes wrong or you have to go back and redo it, you can do that in a couple of hours instead of needing to drive back to wherever you were before the parking lot or the warehouse or whatever. Cool. Well, Ian, thank you so much. Was there anything else here that I cut you off?

No, no. That was that was pretty much it for me. I’d say that the other kind of point that I wanted to make is it’s. It’s it’s not so much for in my mind, anyway, the data that’s on Facebook isn’t so much geared towards evaluating speakers. It’s not somewhere where I go to look at a bunch of different traces of speakers and decide which one is the best. It’s it’s more about verifying that my measurements are appropriate for what might be wrong with my own measurements or my own set up quickly.

Another they’ll just do quickly. Another sideline story up once ones one, a one, CS, whatever. I’ve done several different refer jobs in theaters around Canada where we go in and we start with taking one speaker and putting it on the deck and putting brand new drivers in and running it off of a single amplifier and a single processor. And then we go through every speaker with the same MAPP and processor again limiting the variables. I don’t want to try process or a speaker wire a speaker, a speaker and then go BBB, CCC.

I want to have the same amplifier and speaker and process are driving every single loudspeaker to go through all these and we make sure that every speaker works properly and then we make sure that all the wiring in the building is working properly and there’s no issues with processors. And one of the ones I tripped over several years ago, and it was only because I measured hundreds of CPUs in my life that I turned on the P.A. and I realized immediately that all the high frequency out of all the speakers was 60 feet down from a low frequency.

And it turned out that the solution or the problem was they had Bompard was actually amplifiers and they had gone into the first amplifier with Xolair and they had jumper down to the other amplifiers with a quarter inch to Xolani, and they unbalance the connection in the rack. This system had been like this for 20 years. So if I if I didn’t know that that’s what the speaker was supposed to look like, I might have done what all the other people did before me and just turned up the high frequency.

Instead of fixing the wiring problem, so having the correct data on the front end is quite valuable, and those are those are really good stories and terrifying. So thank you for putting the fear into our hearts. One of my other moderators is reminding me to remind you that the reason we have these words, actionable field data at the top left of every page of the site, because that is the main thing that we’re offering here. We’re not offering laboratory grade speaker measurements.

We’re not trying to replace those. We’re doing things for you and I. I’m making a measurement that I know that I can use in the field and I’m sharing it with you and you can also use it in the field. So actual field data data you can take action on. OK, great. Well, I want to get into Arthur Arthur segment. So, Arthur, I already introduced you. And if you would love if you would like to take over the screen share, you can.

And otherwise I’ll leave mine up for as long as you want.

So let’s talk about Facebook and its validity, usefulness and some applications here. So, you know, oftentimes I come across situations where, you know, questions arise about the data that I’m measuring and smart. And I’ve come across a lot of situations where I have to question whether something is wired up correctly or if I have a problem with the DSP settings or there’s some really odd acoustical interaction happening or an anomaly of some sort. So oftentimes I encounter myself in these kind of situations where I’m on a project site and I’m commissioning a system.

Could be a brand new system. Everything’s straight out of the box, or it could be a system that has been used many times. And, you know, we have to wonder, you know, exactly what is going on and is there any issues that I need to resolve here? Because, you know, one thing that we teach in smart classes is that the best solution to any problem is to fix it at the source. And if there is anything I drive home in my seminars, it’s always find the problem at the source and do your corrective action there.

So if there is an issue with a loudspeaker, then you need to take care of it at the loudspeaker. You can’t fix that with Nikou. And so the closer you are to the source of the problem, the more effective your solution. So anyway, I find that Facebook addresses a need that I’ve been wanting for many, many years of commissioning. So let’s talk about the usefulness of Facebook measurements. Obviously, as you seen here earlier in the seminar, it allows one to make comparisons of both magnitude and phase response to help select speakers that compliment each other.

You know, it’s not always a a. The thing that you can trust that one speaker from one manufacturer will match up with another speaker from another manufacturer, and one of the exercises I do in my class is to take a really good speaker and match it up with a really crappy speaker. It’s always fun and educational to do that because oftentimes a crappy speaker will have a really wonky crossover in the in the mid frequency’s that will inevitably cause some interaction to happen, good or bad in the frequency.

So oftentimes they’ll take the two speakers and figure out a way of shoehorning the crappy speaker to match up with a good one. Obviously, you know, if we were in a perfect world, you know, if I go to espec one speaker for the Mayne’s, I probably will speak from the same manufacturer, a complementary product for my fellow speakers and so on and so forth. So I had the luxury of being able to say what it needs to be.

But oftentimes we don’t have that option. And, you know, yeah, they may have a rocking main system, but, you know, the front filled speakers are the cheap leftovers from the previous system that they used to own. So this year allows you to make those comparisons. And as Nathan pointed out really, really nicely here, is that the ability of comparing the face Trace’s between loudspeakers as they are measured, can reveal a lot of information, especially in the overlap regions of interest that could have an impact on your your commissioning of the system.

Another usefulness of Facebook here is it’s a fantastic device to troubleshoot systems and it helps diagnose problems. Case in point, I had one system that I was commissioning and essentially it was too passive to a loudspeakers that were flown in the center cluster in a church and they were wired in parallel to one amplifier. Obviously, they were saving money and instead of buying separate amplifier channels for each loudspeaker, it just made sense in this case to share the amplifier channels for the full range loudspeaker.

So two loud speakers, full range going into one output of an amplifier. So here I am. You know, obviously I put some pink noise into the system. And, you know, the first thing I always do is just walk the coverage, just walk from left to right, listening very critically to what I’m hearing with that loudspeaker that helps me pick the optimal microphone positions to measure the system. And, you know, it’s a great tool to really evaluate what’s going on in terms of the system’s response.

But what is really revealing is what happens in the overlap region. If you’re going to overlap region between two loudspeakers in a cluster, if there are some things that are off, you will definitely hear in that overlap region. And it’s going to sound really weird. And so as I was walking across the coverage of these two loudspeakers, all of a sudden the overlap region, the high frequencies were completely gone. It was almost like I was in a cone of silence in the overlap region, whereas, you know, normally in an overlap region, you will actually hear a little bit of a rise in level because of the overlap if everything was coming together correctly.

So I really had to question what was going on. But the problem was I did not have a reference to go by on my analyzer to figure out what is going on. So I set up two microphones, one in the on access response of one speaker and one in the other. I took a measurement and smart and I noticed that there was some really weird stuff happening in the face curve in the high frequencies. So I asked the contractor that installed this.

I said, you know, there’s something really wrong here. One of the speakers is very different than the other. And, you know, if you were to just. Talk to one speaker or the other. It sounded OK, although there was some some mid range cancelation that I was hearing, kind of a whole response. But what was really telling was that when I looked at the curbs and smart, the phase curve was one hundred and eighty degrees different in the high frequencies than the other loud speaker.

And apparently I asked the contractor, I said, did you do anything to this loud speaker, to you, open it up to you. Did you do anything? Oh, yeah. We installed this initially in the church and they blew out the high frequency driver. So we had to call it the manufacturer to get a replacement driver. And, you know, these speakers are 30 feet up in the air. So it’s like it’s not going to be a trivial task to get up there and fix things.

So they replace the high frequency driver. And you know, and I know that the wiring color codes inside loud speakers doesn’t necessarily follow our standard red and black or or white and black in our standard wiring of loudspeaker systems. So they accidentally wired the high frequency driver that they replaced. Polarity reversed. And, you know, they ended up having to bring the whole scaffolding kit back to the church and set it up and fix that problem on site, while I was waiting, my clock was ticking and they had to run back to the warehouse, get their scaffold, go up there and fix the problem.

You know, it’s like, well, can’t you fix that in your cue? Well, yeah, I could put an all pass filter, but the problem is one amplifier channel is doing both speakers. So if I correct for one, the other one will have the opposite reaction. So there was no turning back here. But, you know, if I had a Facebook trace of this loud speaker, you know, measured, I would have had some real confidence in what the response of that loud speaker should be.

So I could actually show the contractor, hey, you got something wrong here. You know, for me, it was convincing the contractor that, yeah, it’s worth your time to go back to the warehouse and get your scaffolded. But I really had to put my foot down and say, look, this needs to be corrected. So just a classic example of of the ability of troubleshooting a system in diagnosing problems. Another feature, I don’t know if we touched on this yet or not, but we’ve also included in interest book the ability to measure the true output capabilities of a loudspeaker using the techniques that might sound have developed with them noise.

And so I’m hoping that we can get some real world measurement data on the true SBL capabilities. And that seems to be, you know, open to a lot of interpretation and hopefully with the procedures that we outlined in the document how to make measurements, I’m hoping that we have become a little bit more democratic in the way we measure the true Aspell output capabilities of a loudspeaker so that we have a database here that we can rely on instead of just relying on the speaker manufacturer data saying they’ll do this Max.

SBL Well, great. How do I interpret what you think, Max SBL should be? Is it, you know, 30 seconds worth of Max Aspell or is it five minutes or is it one hour? And how did you come up with those values? And hopefully with trace book, we can get a consistency in the way that data is presented so that when you look through the database here to Facebook, you can actually look at the speaker and say, oh, OK, so this one here is going to put this amount of spell out.

It may not match up with a bigger loudspeaker that has this capability. So it’s really, really handy device to measure the capability of these loud speakers. And then for reasons beyond the scope of this presentation, let’s be honest, the data that some manufacturers present is sketchy sometimes at best, if it even exists. There’s some manufacturers that my hat’s off to them. They published some really good data and I’m really happy to see that. But there are other manufacturers where this is kind of a closed book and it’s almost like pulling teeth to get any real data out of them as to what the on access frequency response to that loudspeaker is.

So, you know, it’s a mixed bag. Let’s move on here for I use up all my time here. It’s unbiased data, and we just touched on this earlier. We have third party moderators here, you know, that will moderate the data. So, you know, number one, the person submitting the data can moderate it. If a manufacturer submits it, it’s still subject to our moderation process. So you can rest assured that we’re trying to keep this as unbiased as possible.

And we also know the source. You know, every single measurement in this database has the source labeled there. So, you know, if you recognize that person’s name, should we call them up and ask them about the data that they measured? It’s an even playing field. Everything is being measured consistently. We really, really worked hard on publishing the document on how to measure these loudspeakers. And we tried to make it as easy as possible and as foolproof as possible.

Is it perfect? No, I’m sure we’ll find some errors and some modifications that we may need to make to that document is a living document and will continue to be a living document as far as we’re concerned. But we worked many months on how to refine this whole measurement process, despite all the lockdown’s and everything like that, to measure the loudspeakers. And I’ve got to say, it was very educational for me to sit in on the discussions as we refined the whole measurement process.

And there were assumptions that I made that were duly shot down. And I’m actually happy for it because I gained something from it and I learned a lot of things from it. And I was very, very happy to be a part of that process. So we’re trying to make things as consistent as possible. You know, it’s good data. You need to moderators to improve it. And it’s real world measurements, these are taken in warehouses that are not taken in an adequate shape or although we won’t refuse data that is measured under those conditions.

But I got to say, I don’t have an anechoic chamber in my back pocket here. And I would say that ninety nine percent of the people who participate don’t have that luxury. Let’s put it this way. You know, we’re trying to make this as reasonable a process as possible. So as long as you have a decent sized space to make the measurements, there is no reason why you can’t make those measurements yourself. I’ve been even debating making measurements on my driveway at my house.

Maybe I’ll have to be really careful that I don’t do it at odd hours of the night so I don’t piss off the neighbors. But there’s no reason why you can’t take those measurements, you know, at home or at the shop, you know, community. Before they got there, anechoic chamber, they were taking all the measurements of their loudspeakers off the rear dock of their factory. They had a crane that quite literally went straight out about, I think, 20 feet.

And they had a microphone stand that was attached straight to the wall, the warehouse, and they would actually fly the loudspeaker on this crane or this gantry that projected out 20 feet. And they would make the measurements that way. And I got to say, the data that I’ve seen come from community was absolutely stellar. They were probably one of the pioneers in presenting a really, really good data for their loudspeakers. So, you know, to be honest with you, I don’t think they spent more than a couple thousand dollars for this whole set up to do some really, really high level measurements.

And likewise, using the ground playing, you can do this super, super, super cheap. So and it gives us actionable data. We can use this information to make real world comparisons with reasonable uncertainty. We cannot eliminate uncertainty, but we can minimize it and keep it reasonable. Applications, troubleshooting systems, like I mentioned previously, the the problem with the cluster that I had, you know, this kind of tool would have been very, very useful in my situation.

You know, recently I had a line array that a client bought used off an auction. And so I had to come in and actually measure the entire line or a box by box. And essentially I set up a ground plain and measured each box individually. And lo and behold, I had one or two high frequency drivers that showed signs of a lot of use. So we replaced those and they have a stellar system permanently installed. Now, this is also a perfect measurement technique for rental houses to make a record of every single loudspeaker in your collection to verify the performance of your loudspeakers so that when you have a system that comes back to your warehouse, you can actually have the ability to compare each individual loudspeaker that’s coming off the loading dock and just verify that it’s it’s still within spec and still performing correctly.

So this can be a very quick verification. And, you know, if you want to post your entire inventory of loudspeakers to Facebook, you’re more than welcome to do that. And we would absolutely love that. The more data of one loudspeaker that we can get, the more confident we can get with the Trace’s. InSitu reality check, often times we can’t test loudspeakers on the site, you know, you want to do those tests before they are flown up in the air 30 or 40 feet.

So in this case, the contractor he should have done is due diligence and tested everything before removing that scaffolding out of place. So if he had done the tests on the ground, we would have found those problems very, very quickly. I do carry a very, very long mike extension pole for those cases where the speakers are already flown. So and of course, evaluating different loudspeakers for their potential application usefulness. Finally, there are some shortcomings and we’re going to be very honest with you.

This is not a perfect database. It never will be as long as there’s the human element of measuring these loudspeakers. But, you know, we can’t guarantee that everything is absolutely clean and precise. You know, you need an echo chamber for that and some very, very expensive test gear. So we’re going to admit to you that these measurements are not going to be perfect in the database. And, you know, we’ll do our best to approve data that is actually trustworthy and is clean.

And the coherent trace is going to be very key in our evaluation of whether this is really good data or not. You know, the second thing that we don’t claim to do here is measure the polar response to the loudspeaker to to measure the polar response of the loudspeakers. Not a trivial exercise. It involves getting a turntable that you set the loudspeaker on and then you measure at five degree increments or even higher resolution. You take a snapshot of the response to that loudspeaker.

And not only do you look at the horizontal angle measurements, but then you also have to tilt the loudspeaker as well. And the other dimension. So you’re getting a full 360 degrees in. Some manufacturers say, well, this is a very time consuming process because you can imagine five degree increments, three hundred and sixty degrees sphere around that loudspeaker. That’s a heck of a lot of data. So oftentimes manufacturers only look at one hundred and eight degrees spheres.

So they’re only going to do a spherical data and all that. But this this all to say that we’re not pretending to measure a loudspeaker completely. And if people complain, oh, this is not a true representation of the loudspeaker, yeah. We will admit that that is the case here. But at least you have non axis response to that loudspeaker so that you can make those measurements and make those comparisons. So that’s really what we’re after here. This is not to say that we will not include other valuable measurements.

And probably when you go through the website and you look at the data, you know, definitely in the forum raise the issue of, hey, you know, it would be really cool if we measured this kind of data and we certainly would be very open to evaluating that and enhancing the data that we collect in Facebook. So it is in flux and we definitely would consider your input on what other measurements you would find useful. Finally, it is not an exact exhaustive database of data yet.

We are just beginning and it’s only as good as it is embraced by professional sound people like you. So jump on board and start contributing to the database. We would just absolutely love your input. And even if you’re an absolute novice when it comes to measuring loudspeakers, hey, we would be more than happy to help you out in making good measurements. And, you know, don’t ever take any of our critiques or anything like that. Personally, we want to elevate the the process and help you do a better job and become a really good person to measure loudspeakers.

So anyway, that’s all I got. And sorry if I ran over time here, but hopefully you found that really beneficial.

I thought that was great and I just want to tag on to what you’re saying and say that one of the interesting side benefits of doing the work of uploading something to Facebook is that you get some very experienced people looking at your work. So if you had ever wanted to have someone like in Arthur, take a look at your work and give you feedback and and you almost get like a little bit of a private training from someone with a lot of experience, then that’s one way to do that, because all of our moderators have either been using Smart for a long time or audio analyzers in general and doing work for a long time.

So I have found that personally to be a big benefit. So we do so much of our work by ourselves out in the field. Right. That it can it can be really helpful to get someone else’s eyes on it and get some feedback. Definitely. Thank you very much, Arthur. So I guess I will take the screen share again and then until we hand it over to Caesar. So, Caesar, you here?

I am. I am. I am here.

OK. Welcome to IEM Sound Design Live. Welcome. The live sounds of.

Yeah, thank you. I’m sorry, it’s it’s it’s not it couldn’t be are worse time I had really trouble. I am having trouble with the Internet, but most of all, I have the mindset is quite blurry. I have been robbed in my studio. I came to my studio for this summit and I discovered that somebody entered it at night and took a lot of gear borrowed without any control of when he’s going to return it. So I don’t know.

That’s terrible. Yes, that’s the last thing to say, but I’ve been following at the same time that talking with the police look like an inventory of what’s missing and I’m going, gosh, I’m going to miss that, Neeve. Ten, twenty three that that for sure. OK, but OK. A lot of what I was thinking about saying has already been said. I, I just want to add I just want to add, I mean to to to to tell a little more of what’s being said and to add a little more.

Um, I remember from my times at the National Auditorium that the difference between manufacture data data and unfiled data, um, one thing that I mean, all of we who who who are aligning and processing equipment, we are not the kind of guys that that just used the system as it goes. That’s what optimization is all about. And we we fight for every dB in order to get the best performance of any system. And as such, when I received a brand new system for the auditorium that I participated in designing it, the first thing I did was to measure each and every box in order to have a picture of it, like the first day.

So I could do afterwards measuring each year or every two years and confirm that that the system was aging well and it was not ill, etc.. So this is one of of of of my my first things that I can think about that you said little about it at the beginning, sometimes comparing the absolute data data that comes from from the the the manufacturer either through anechoic or or the marketing engineered curb is not is not as useful or is very useful.

But the real data, the field data is, is, is sometimes much more useful for comparing what you have. And as such I, I would. Have loved to to have to have something like Facebook back then, like like 10 years ago or something like that, in order to, as you said, like like having the average the statistic value of of a lot of measures taken in. Again, the measures everybody has already said are unbiased, they are vetted, that this is actually data that you can be confident on and to use.

And at the same time, there’s the other part of Facebook that is very important, which is to provide, to share by sharing you you I mean, you learn a lot in the process. I mean, I, I, I was a little trying to help a little in the process you’ve been building with the other guys with been with Alex about how to measure. And we all know that this is this has been a hard work mainly for you, looking for the right amount of the right balance between complication and accuracy, how to get complicated enough or possibility of the actual measurements that can be done by people that can be repeated.

And I think you just nail it after a very long process that now becomes public and now it’s the good things to happen. Now it’s like now it’s it’s it’s about to grow and to build these data to to to see it populated by a lot of of of. Of products that that that are going to be, I think, a very useful resource to us all and learning in the process, learning either by comparing or by trying to provide data and actually getting the data on the system.

The other thing I wanted to add is related to where I am, which is, as some of you know, others don’t don’t. I am in South America. I belong to the U.S., to the Latin American region. And I think that this project is is going to be I invite everybody from the region to to join this project is going to be great for us, too, because we I mean, this this this kind of project help us to to to build filter information at the same time.

But also it gives the possibility to four months manufacturers like the ones we have in the region, like I won’t name any brand, but there are guys from Argentina making speaker the guy, guys from Brazil making speaker that are very serious, but who don’t have the budgets of the DMD or the Myerson’s or either for marketing that that is maybe good or for engineer or engineering, measuring, etc. They don’t own maybe non-liquid chamber or the possibility to I mean, they have to rent it in a university, etc.

and that it’s not that they are not serious. I mean, they are making great products that will benefit a lot if we Latin American community can populate this with good, reliable, valid measurement of products that are not maybe the ones everybody knows. So we can compare. And as Nathan said at the beginning, are those compatible with within the setup’s with other products? We don’t know. And this would be a way of of of putting actual good data about products that we don’t know a lot and we are using we were using before Bundamba every day.

We are not using them now. But hey, we are going we’re coming back sometime. So that’s more like my my two cents in this. I a lot of has been said and I really welcome the idea. I really think that this is a really great endeavor that should be that that is going to grow and it’s going to be very, very important in all of our futures. So thank you, Nathan. And that SESAR. Thank you so much.

Oh, man, I am so sorry to hear about what happened with your studio. I feel like someone is really taking a personal attack on me, screwing up our event by a man. So so, man, we’re also sorry to hear about that and thank you for showing up even in the middle of that. And I wanted to ask you, SESAR, are you impressed and happy that I’m using an audio analyzer from Latin America? That make you happy, a.

I mean, I am I am so low now that even even your hair makes me happy.

OK. OK. All right. So we’re going to get into some Q&A. And Divya asked a couple of questions in the past. And I’ve totally been ignoring and sorry about that. So I think this is actually a question for you, Arthur, because it came in during your presentation and it basically just says, what is a polarity inversion?

Well, when I was looking at the loudspeaker in that cluster situation, I was paying attention to the phase curve. So I measured one speaker and it produced a really nice even phase response. Then I looked at the other loudspeaker and yeah, it has a built in passive crossover and, you know, equidistant. The microphones were perfectly consistent at the same delay time for both microphone measurement positions. So everything was the same in terms of the measurement conditions of each mic for each speaker.

Obviously I could turn off both one speaker at a time because I didn’t have a ladder long enough to go up there and popped the connector off of one speaker and just measured them one at a time. So I was comparing the two and what I did was I just took snapshots of each loudspeaker and then overlaid them in Smart. And I looked at the face trace and that was my aha moment going, Hey, did someone switch the wiring around here?

You know, I you know, this, you know, it’s not too unheard of that a manufacturer might have screwed up something and wired up a driver. Reverse polarity. But when you look at the face trace and you see a trend where one phase trace is one hundred and eighty degrees different than the other over the range of frequencies of that particular driver, then, you know, you have a polarity reverse situation happening there. And I think that getting data from Facebook, I could overlay that within Smart and even compare that, because here I was stuck in a situation where I didn’t know which one was was correct and which was not correct.

It was really hard to judge that because I didn’t have a frame of reference of what that loudspeaker should measure correctly and that this is a couple of years ago. And really all what I had to to go by was to call up the manufacturer. And I knew one of the tech support people there. And I asked them, I said, OK, what am I looking at here? Which speaker is the right one? Which one’s the wrong one?

And we were able to deduce from the smart trace which one was the wrong one. And then I talked to the contractor and he verified that he had replaced the high frequency diaphragm. So smart is a very powerful tool. As long as you keep everything you know, you know, when you go into the delay locator, you find the delay time for each loudspeaker. Make sure both are exactly at the same time reference so that you can make the comparisons without being influenced by other factors.

So that’s the key is to measure consistently and trace book is in some respects a way of measuring consistently. So you can actually see what’s happening with that phase response. And, you know, one speaker, the phase response was absolutely smooth from about two hundred hertz all the way up to twenty. Cain’s nice, flat smooth. The other loud speaker it was you could see the phase curve and then all of a sudden it jumped one hundred and eighty degrees at the crossover point typically of where their high frequency device was.

And that’s when I knew a, there is something wrong here. So you could do the same with a low frequency driver as well. You you will see those inconsistencies occur right at the crossover region. Typically in a two way loud speaker, that crossover will be around 1000 to 2000 hertz, depending on the size of the box. Others might be lower, others might be a little higher, just depending on how the speakers built. Hopefully that helps.

Yeah, that was great. Thank you, Arthur. Go ahead.

One more thing to add, if I might, is that there’s a little bit of confusion in the industry between the term phase and polarity. And phases of shift in time polarity is an inversion of positive, a negative, and there’s no time change and polarity is just flipping the positive and negative. So we see a change of the face trace either up one hundred and eighty or down one hundred, and maybe it’s one hundred and eight degrees away from the zero.

But there’s no time component with polarity and with phase. It’s always a time component. That’s it.

Thank you. OK, Tony says, How do you measure the maximum safe SBL one speaker can produce if technical data is not given? So, Tony, I’m not sure exactly what you mean by safe, but I’m going to assume that you actually mean without distortion, because safe would mean you just go farther away so you protect your ears. But if you mean without distortion, then what we rely on at Facebook is the noise measurement procedure. And we link to that in our own documentation here.

Basically, when you get to the section about measuring maximum SBL, you’ll see that we basically say go, go look at the erm noise procedure. It hopefully it is on his way to becoming the standard for measuring maximum speed. And so we have adopted it ourselves. We don’t feel like it’s necessary to reinvent the wheel and we’re happy that that is available. So yeah, we actually don’t have we maybe only have one or no measurements with maximum speed because it’s a little bit of extra work to set that stuff up.

So we would love it if Tony, if you would do that with some of your speakers that you have and upload that data for other people to see it.

In a nutshell, what you’re looking for in measuring the Max SBL, the device is to look at the response of that loudspeaker and evaluate when it starts becoming non-linear in its response. That’s really the onset of when you’re getting to the Max Aspell capability of that loudspeaker. So am noise procedure goes into that and helps you evaluate the response. And that’s why this seemed to tie in so nicely with Facebook, is that we’re measuring the response of the loudspeaker under its ideal conditions when it’s showing an absolutely linear behavior.

And what I mean by linear behavior is that no matter whether you have 50 DPL coming out of that loudspeaker or 80 or 90, the consistency of the response to that loudspeaker, we very, very much the same. No matter what volume level you listen to it, as soon as you get to the point where it starts distorting, you’re getting into the nonlinear behavior of the loudspeaker and naturally the response will change accordingly. So that’s what you’re looking for when you’re doing Max Aspell.

Yes, it’s loud. Yes, you need to wear hearing protection, but I think it would be very, very useful to make those measurements as well.

OK, we’re going to start wrapping up here and getting ready for our next presentation. So if you have any questions, please put those into the questions link. Maybe you can put that question link into the chat again, owlish or just on mute yourself or put your hand up. Some final things that I’ll share are these questions that came in ahead of time. So you guys know when you signed up for the summit, you I asked you what is the main thing you want to learn here?

And it’s annoying that I forced you to answer that. But it’s really important for us to have a sense of of what you guys want to learn while you’re here. And I found several questions where I feel like the answer is just Facebook. So with all of these questions here, Savala says after this covid era, what will you or anybody do differently than before? One thing that I’m going to do before is always do some pre production work where I’m referencing Facebook.

Can I go and see? Did someone upload a measurement of that? Kate in. Oh, Alice did. OK, great. So I’ll download that. Thank you. And another question. How do I pick the crossover frequency in DSP for main subs with unmatched, weaker brands? How do I choose which type of CPU? So we’ve been talking about that today in an Arthur and I both spoke about like, how do we deal with some of these problems that face compatibility and and brand and model compatibility?

And again, I feel like the answer is starting with Facebook, because we can download that data, look at it before the room starts getting involved and really do our due diligence in our preproduction work. And then finally, Jeff Mayers. And then what are the best practices for maintaining phase coherency through the PEO? And again, the answer here is to Facebook. You want to take a look at that stuff before you get into the room and told that great story about measuring all these phasor apps.

And it looks like all this line is not phase compatible with anything else anymore. Well, once he had some reference, he could do some further investigation and discover that there’s something else in line that was actually causing that apparent faced problem. OK, a couple of other questions came in. Brandon says, Do you plan to make any public forum on Facebook to share in the field measurements, ask questions, et cetera, outside of the approved Trace’s for reference?

Yes, exactly. So if you go to Facebook, there’s a little I’m not sure if you can read this text depending on what device you have, but up here in the navigation bar, it says forum. And yes, so here’s the forum and you can post things. And this is where I direct everyone. If they either have a question or have something they want to share that is not necessarily fall within the parameters of Facebook. We have had lots of people make suggestions about things that we should add.

We should add in situ measurements, we should add arrays, we should add polar plots off axis measurements. There are great arguments to be made that off axis measurements are actually more important than on axis measurements. We’ve heard a lot of this stuff and we really appreciate that. And no one’s arguing that those aren’t important. But for these first steps with this new project, we have put some constraints on what we’re accepting at the beginning so that we can just see if we can get this thing going in this measurement procedure, working with on access.

So those elements, once we get that rolling and we see that the procedure is working and people are making uploads and the site’s working and people actually want this and there’s some demand for this, then we’re going to start looking at those next thing. So if you take a look at the feature request or the product roadmap, you’ll see that we are exploring and considering some of these things like arrays and off axis measurements. But until then, we would love for you to share those here in the forum.

So if you go to the forum, you can just make a new post and say, hey, this doesn’t go into Facebook, but I have this array and I just want to share it here. And then other people will be able to search that because this this whole place is searchable. So we could type in Branden’s upload or Branden’s array or whatever the the the brand is that he used. And did you want to say something and go.

Well, there’s also on on every record, there’s also the discussion and then there’s the moderation discussion. So there’s a discussion. That’s if I’m correct, Nathan is public. And then there’s also an area in that record for a moderator to have a private discussion with the person who uploaded the records so we can get into some more technical things with with you. And that, you know, if you have a discussion, if you want to talk about something that you don’t want public privately between the moderator and yourself, you can do that yourself as well.

Yeah, this has been really interesting because as soon as someone uploads something, we have some questions. And and this is where actually a lot of the learning for me happens is sort of in these these private discussions. But, yes, that’s great. So we have a discussion panel here where you can ask questions and you can say, hey, Nathan, why does this look like this? Why did you do it this way? And that’s what we really encourage that, because we want to like we want to focus on the data.

Right. We want to focus on how this thing was done and see what we can learn from it. OK, Todd says, how about adding microphone traces to the library, Nathan dropped the 414 well, it passes audio, but he didn’t drop the 414. Hey, Todd, I don’t know if you have a microphone, you’re able to talk. I’m not sure what you mean by the 414, but my son, I was given an example, like in a show or somebody drops a microphone.

Usually you just pick it up, plug it in and it works. Well, another way to trace like compare it to the original, either if you buy one new, you could put it in or you don’t have a reference. You could find somebody else’s 414 and compare it to see if it’s damaged. Yeah, that actually happened to me recently. I dropped my second microphone or it fell over on the stand and I thought that’s probably fine. Right?

And then I got to the end of the day and saw that that my two imex seventy one fifties don’t match anymore. And I brought up Smart again to see if I could find that real quickly. I may not because sometimes when you reopen it, they’re not in chronological order again.

Yeah, go ahead. Whenever I’m doing a precision microphone comparison, the source is critical. So if I measure a microphone with my speaker and you measure a microphone in a different situation with your speaker, the variable is going to be the acoustic environment and your speaker as well. I’m back to eliminating variables. If you’re going to do precision microphone comparisons has to be the same source in the same conditions at exactly the same distance. So for that reason, I don’t think it would work so well and Tracy.

Great, thanks.

Yeah, and there are also some other projects out there, like a test kitchen where we’re not exactly the same thing, but kind of similar, and I would expect that they would probably move into that before we would get into microphones. But, Todd, if you if you think that’s important, maybe put that into a feature request so we can sort of have it on the have it on the radar.

It seems to be a very cool application of it, you know. You know, we could also possibly look at measuring in your monitors as well. And you have that that might be kind of a side database because it’s not really measuring the same conditions as you would a loudspeaker. But I can see the usefulness of having some kind of a compile data of response curves. I mean, you know, it’s not that hard to measure and 758 and determine the response as long as you have a good noise generator to measure by, you know.

But, you know, if you could get a quick and dirty curve of an S m fifty eight and be able to compare it to other parts. Fifty eight. So that would be great. I know I keep a database of all my measurement mikes that I have in my collection and compare them to a platinum standard that stays in my office unless I need to make comparisons. But I can see the usefulness of it. I really can. And for musical instrument mix.

Yeah, maybe. I think the big thing that we would have to overcome is how do you take into account things like the Polder Responsive mic? It’s not that hard to do Anami Directional Mike, but once you get into a car toid or Hypercar toid, then you have the influence of the room coming in and and wreaking havoc to your measured response curves. But one thing I noticed is if I drop my earthworks microphone and the tip gets bent or damaged or something like that, one really telltale sign of something is wrong is you get an instant low pass filter around a thousand hertz, and your only choice is to send it back to the factory to get the diaphragm replaced and.

I just put a link in the chat to crinkle dotcom, I actually took some inspiration from this site when we were working on where to go. We’re working on Facebook for the first time. Somebody told me about this. And so I can’t verify any of this data. But I basically just want to verify that, yes, people are interested in this. So this guy has made a whole career here out of measuring IEMs. He’s got a lot of stuff in his database already.

So in a way, very similar to trace book. But for AMS. OK, cool. Well, I think we’re going to unless there’s any other questions, I’m probably going to hand it back to Alec and then we’ll be getting ready for our next thing.

Yeah, they don’t seem to be any more questions for you guys. Thank you so much for this presentation to all presenters. This is a great, great project and I hope we all get to participate in it and of course, upload traces for me personally, I think this is going to be reading through the documentation on how to do the measurements is going to be like a mental exercise of whether or not I have all the steps down in measuring anything.

You know, it doesn’t have to be specifically for Trisko, but it seems like a great resource to have. And again, thank you for an amazing presentation.

Yeah, yeah. That’s that’s a good point. It is great educational opportunity to just go through this document and go through the videos that we put together on the upload page. And I’m sorry to interrupt you, but I also forgot to say thank you very much, Ian Robertson, Arthur Skudra and Cesar Lamschtein for for being my guests here on the panel today. And thank you guys for listening. And if you have any questions, there is a little chat button here on the page, or you can contact me Nathan at trace-book.org or you guys know my other email addresses.

3 Biggest Takeaways from Live Sound Summit 2021

By Nathan Lively

#1 – Immersive is not necessarily more complex and expensive. It is a redistribution of complexity and cost.

One of the reasons that I assumed that I would never get to work on an immersive sound system is the cost. Most events I work on struggle to cover the entire audience with mono. When you multiply that by five it seems impossible.

It turns out that an immersive sound system might actually cost the same as a traditional LR sound system in the same room. One of the reasons is that the arrays can be shorter.

What I’ve been trying to promote to productions to try to get them to do this is, let’s make a trade. You give me the high horizontal space and I’ll give you everything below it.

Robert Scovill, Why immersive?
Robert Scovill

Kim Wheeler asked him why and he said, “I think it’s partially the efficiency.”

My understanding is that once you break apart the mix into several discreet channels, each of those channels requires less power. Imagine the headroom you would need to mix five voices into the same speaker and then how that would change if you split those five voices into five separate speakers. Instead of multiplying a traditional array by five, you might think of dividing it by five and redistributing it.

The number one reason we sell SoundScape systems is not sound quality. People spend with their eyes, so having a speaker system that is high and tight is actually the main benefit.

In a traditional system all speakers are burdened equally because they all have exactly the same signal. It’s a headroom bottleneck. [In an immersive system] the bottle neck is not the same across the system. Every speaker has a different bottleneck, which allows it to breathe and act more naturally. There’s more headroom because of that.

The speaker system is cheaper because it uses less amplifiers and less speakers, but we charge a pretty penny for the processors so now we’re back to even. It is a legitimate choice. I’m not just pushing you the new hotness.

Nick Malgieri, d&b audiotechnik, The self-aware PA system and the future of live sound

During Nick’s presentation he showed us an example system that could transform from 32 line array elements and 16 amps channels in a traditional system into 8 point source elements and 8 amp channels in an immersive system. I’m sure the circumstances will change for every installation, but it was an eye-opening example.

#2 – Sexual harassment is a safety concern

Understanding sexual harassment and how to effectively intervene in potentially harmful situations is about creating safe spaces for our customers, clients, and employees.

Sometimes it gets pushed off to the side as a women’s issue, but it’s a safety issue at the end of the day.

Kim Warnick, Calling All Crows, Harassment in Live Music: How You Can Be Part of the Solution

What Kim suggests is to frame the conversation as a safety issue that effects everyone. It’s also good to remember that sexual harassment is a form of sexual discrimination and is therefore unlawful.

Take the online sexual violence prevention course for industry pros and encourage artists, venues, festivals and companies to take the Anti-Harassment Pledge.

sexual harassment

#3 – Do you have a backup console?

My takeaway from Sean Sully’s talk was to look at every piece of equipment in the signal chain that is critical for the show and think about what I would do if it went down.

Sean started off by reminding us of the 2017 Coachella where Radiohead’s show went down because of a console failure. He later told the story of mixing Shania Twain in Las Vegas when his main console went down. He switched over to his backup console temporarily while the issue was resolved. No one in the audience knew there was a problem.

sean sully
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